How to make use of FWs vs chaos SMs

A review of past Alien Tactics by commanders during the First and Second Phase Expansion.
BrotherErekose
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How to make use of FWs vs chaos SMs

Post#1 » Nov 26 2006 10:20

This is a questoin on how to use four dozen FWs agaisnt chaos marines.

I have been told they're useless against the Death Guard I'll be going against. However, I need to keep the following in mind:
-------------------------------------------
Standing in the base's garage (for lack of better word), the newly promoted Commander admires the gleaming lines of his new XV8 with his subordinates standing about him. Hurried footsteps announced the arrival of a priority message.

"Sir? We've just received orders to meet and destroy some.... 'Death Guard'?"

"Yes, sergeant. Disease ridden, monkey, scum. Lieutenant, assemble the task force." Well read, well educated, seasoned, this Shas'O already knew what would be best to defeat the Chaos filth.

"Quarter Master. I haven't had time to review the force's complement since your last skimmirsh under the previous Commander. What's left?"

The quarter master replied, "Yessir. Your suit, 3 more XV8s, 6 Stealths, 2 tanks, either cannon available. There are over thirty mercenaries, a few of them vespid, two full drone squadrons--"

"That's thin," the commander interrupts.

"And 4 dozen proud Fire Warriors, sir!"
------------------------------------------------
The Commander has no other resources. So, he has to make do. A good general will still make good use of units that would otherwise seem worthless.

How to use these brave Fireboys, in a decent manor?

1. Full sized, mobile and shifting, getting in as much rapid fire before being destroyed in h2h? - not the best option as it hands over 400 VPs to the opponent.
2. Small and static, merely using them for Markerlights? - That'd be 4 to 5 MLs (depending one or two kroot units) and not nearly the throw away in points, but it'd mean making up the deficit in points with vespids and gun drones...possibly, *gasp* my ethereal model.

Input?

-Brother Erekose

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Sa'cea Mont'yr
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Post#2 » Nov 26 2006 10:26

How many points are you playing? Do you have any Devilfish? These are questions that MUST be answered! ;)

Seriously, though, if you don't have any Devilfish, I would say use them as marker teams to increase the firepower of your stealths or the like while your Kroot go to town tying them up and keeping them from being scoring units. If you have Devilfish, what's wrong with 48 S5 shots from 24 guys?
Shas'el Sa'cea Cal'Ka Mon'tyr

BrotherErekose
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Post#3 » Nov 26 2006 10:50

[quote="Shas'O Mont'yr"]How many points are you playing? Do you have any Devilfish? These are questions that MUST be answered! ;)

Seriously, though, if you don't have any Devilfish, I would say use them as marker teams to increase the firepower of your stealths or the like while your Kroot go to town tying them up and keeping them from being scoring units. If you have Devilfish, what's wrong with 48 S5 shots from 24 guys?[/quote]

1st Q: 1850.
2nd Q: The list/models I have was given by the quarter master, thus no 'fish. I am using them as Hammerheads. I *could* make them fish, but an Ion/rail head or two would be far better...or am I wrong there?

I've stripped away my assumptions of what I know about Tau that I learned this summer...taking the little green jedi mater's advice, "You must UNlearn, what you have learned."

Couldn't the tanks accomplish the FoF tactic just as well, though, more risk to the tanks? Hmm, doesn't seem like the best idea....
:-?

-Brother Erekose

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midnight
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Post#4 » Nov 26 2006 11:13

FoF will likely only kill 2 marines. 2. You are also putting them within 12" of what likely has either 2 plasma or 2 meltaguns. They'll eat a fish alive.

If you have to play this with those models, you have one likely advantage. You can try to concentrate fire better than he can. He's Death Guard. They are shot range. You use all 4 units to concentrate on a single unit. You will nickle and dime it, but with 2 markerlight hits on average, an Ionhead will likely eat them for breakfast.
Railhead to kill enemy armor. SMS is probably the way to go as it keeps you out of range. 18" means they get to move 12" and shoot you.

Overload on one side, use all units to fire on the most dangerous target and eliminate. Move to next target.
For the Greater Go'ould! Whoops, wrong genre.

BrotherErekose
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Post#5 » Nov 26 2006 11:32

midnight wrote:FoF will likely only kill 2 marines. 2. You are also putting them within 12" of what likely has either 2 plasma or 2 meltaguns. They'll eat a fish alive.


Yeah, I figured something llike that

midnight wrote:Overload on one side, use all units to fire on the most dangerous target and eliminate. Move to next target.


Alrighty, midnight. Sounds good...lessee, any flaws?

Too clumped. Demon Prince. Gotta counter that. So, to counter that side of FWs from being h2h hopscotched by the Chaos Lord/Demon Prince, put a buffer of kroot in front? 2 separate units, small perhaps? Just enough to statistically not get Swept? 'Course, the Shaper might accomplish that. *Might*.

-Brother Erekose

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btweezel
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Post#6 » Nov 27 2006 08:53

Too clumped. Demon Prince. Gotta counter that. -Brother Erekose


railgun, it kills DPs dead.

a DP is only T5 for instakill purposes, so a railgun shot will remove him in one hit. and, as DPs tend to be monstrous creatures, you can pick them out from turn 1

also, if he takes any kind of special movement (flight, speed) he cannot infiltrate.

stand back, concentrate on one squad at a time, and pound them into a sticky green goo

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Eiglepulper
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Post#7 » Nov 27 2006 10:00

For the 48 FWs: There is the Rolling Withdrawal tactic which could be used against DG. This involves having two FW teams one behind the other about 6" apart with at least 1" between each base in each line. The theory is that the front row falls back legally through the spaces between the models in the rear line, thus allowing one static unit to fire to max rapid fire range, while the moving unit can defend if necessary by double-tap 12" RF against Infiltrators or fast-moving units.

This way you are constantly falling away from the enemy but maintaining a healthy RoF with adequate range.

Agreed that you will not necessarily kill that many DG with pulse fire, but at least you are forcing him forward onto your heavier weapons against many of which he will only get FNP.

You could also use your Kroot with their Rifles as back-up for the FWs; try to hide your unit of Vespid within a large group of Kroot and cause shock attack with their Neutron Blasters. Again, this will have you in close but (a) there is only FNP saves and (b) the Kroot are there as ablative armour.

Hope this helped a little.

E.

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btweezel
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Post#8 » Nov 27 2006 10:48

Death Guard does not get access to Feel No Pain. only khorne armies and specific units of Slaanesh armies can

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Eiglepulper
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Post#9 » Nov 27 2006 10:55

Thanks for correcting me; didn't have my CSM codex open and mistakenly assumed :roll: . So FNP won't help the DG if they are drawn onto the heavier guns then. Yay!

E.

BrotherErekose
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Post#10 » Nov 27 2006 09:09

btweezel wrote:
Too clumped. Demon Prince. Gotta counter that. -Brother Erekose

railgun, it kills DPs dead.
a DP is only T5 for instakill purposes, so a railgun shot will remove him in one hit. and, as DPs tend to be monstrous creatures, you can pick them out from turn 1
also, if he takes any kind of special movement (flight, speed) he cannot infiltrate.


Can't infiltrate with Special Movement?

Hmm, as a mere Chaos Lord he can and has been for several games, getting turn 1 h2h....couldya point out which page that's on? The non-infiltrating MC? I've been flipping back and forth. Codex: CSM or RB (nothing on page 55, 75 or 84 about it) ? He hasn't been cheating on me, has he?

Of course. Duh (me). If he's a MC, then I'll be able to pick him off with the RH...but what about the infiltrate and h2h on turn 1?

btweezel wrote:stand back, concentrate on one squad at a time, and pound them into a sticky green goo


To clarify:
Have three squads of FWs provide each other with Markerlight help, or help themselves if I pay for Target Locks. Then pound a DG pack with 36 shots? Sounds nasty. Odds (thinking quickly and shortly) are I get
18 to 28 hits (ML help to increase BallisticS), half of which will wound. Two-thirds which will make saves. That's 3 to 5 or 6 dead DGs. Not much more if I include the 4th 12 pack of FWs.

He runs squads of 10. Hmmm. Ugly.

Formation? Corner Hug for the whole batch of FWs?? Static line spread?

OR 'wait and see' what the terrain offers?

Think. Think, think.

-Brother Erekose

BrotherErekose
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Post#11 » Nov 27 2006 09:15

eiglepulper wrote:For the 48 FWs: There is the Rolling Withdrawal tactic which could be used against DG. This involves having two FW teams one behind the other about 6" apart with at least 1" between each base in each line. The theory is that the front row falls back legally through the spaces between the models in the rear line, thus allowing one static unit to fire to max rapid fire range, while the moving unit can defend if necessary by double-tap 12" RF against Infiltrators or fast-moving units.

This way you are constantly falling away from the enemy but maintaining a healthy RoF with adequate range.
Hope this helped a little.
E.


I picture it...hmm, I might hafta pull my SMs out, line up the FWs, and walk myself through this on the table....

I'll let ya know once I've walked through a practice round....

:-?

-Brother Erekose

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Fal'Shia Mont'Ka Vendrak
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Post#12 » Nov 27 2006 09:43

Can't infiltrate with Special Movement?

Hmm, as a mere Chaos Lord he can and has been for several games, getting turn 1 h2h....couldya point out which page that's on? The non-infiltrating MC? I've been flipping back and forth. Codex: CSM or RB (nothing on page 55, 75 or 84 about it) ? He hasn't been cheating on me, has he?

Of course. Duh (me). If he's a MC, then I'll be able to pick him off with the RH...but what about the infiltrate and h2h on turn 1?

As long as he is a Chaos Lord and has been given, for example, Daemonic Flight, he can use the infiltrate ability.
However should he become a Daemon Prince he is not allowed to do so as the text of the "Infiltrate" special ability clearly states:
Models with a bike, a Steed, Followers, Daemonic Stature, the Mark of Khorne or Terminator Armour cannot use this skill.

I'd like to see a 10 feet tall monster slowly sneaking up to a wood, and then hide behind a tree, waiting for the enemy to arrive ;)
To clarify:
Have three squads of FWs provide each other with Markerlight help, or help themselves if I pay for Target Locks. Then pound a DG pack with 36 shots? Sounds nasty. Odds (thinking quickly and shortly) are I get
18 to 28 hits (ML help to increase BallisticS), half of which will wound. Two-thirds which will make saves. That's 3 to 5 or 6 dead DGs. Not much more if I include the 4th 12 pack of FWs.

The Target Lock only gives you the ability to shoot with your Shas'Ui at a different target, than the rest of the squad, and does not give it the ability to profit from his Markerlight. So one squad would have to shoot without profitting from a Marker, as you have to start with them somewhere ;) However I wouldn't suggest such a thing anyway, as they would probably be wasted on the Firewarriors. If you get the chance to score a Markerlight-hit on an enemy squad, you should let one of your really hard hitting units profit from it, like an Ionhead (which then only needs to roll a 2+) or one of your Crisis units. The additional 3 pulse hits you get for that Markerlight would probably be a bit of a waste ;)
Ah, yes, mere infantry - poor beggars... - Plautus

BrotherErekose
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Post#13 » Nov 27 2006 10:24

Fal'Shia Mont'Ka Vendrak wrote:

As long as he is a Chaos Lord and has been given, for example, Daemonic Flight, he can use the infiltrate ability.
However should he become a Daemon Prince he is not allowed to do so as the text of the "Infiltrate" special ability clearly states:
Models with a bike, a Steed, Followers, Daemonic Stature, the Mark of Khorne or Terminator Armour cannot use this skill.


I'm sure it clearly states that. Where though? (flips pages in the Codex:CSM, from page 12 on). What page would that be on?

Fal'Shia Mont'Ka Vendrak wrote:I'd like to see a 10 feet tall monster slowly sneaking up to a wood, and then hide behind a tree, waiting for the enemy to arrive ;)

I agree that it makes sense; 'Fexes and HTs and Balrogs and such trying to hide behind some birch trees, simply silly.
;)
I just can't find the entry.


The Target Lock only gives you the ability to shoot with your Shas'Ui at a different target, than the rest of the squad, and does not give it the ability to profit from his Markerlight. So one squad would have to shoot without profitting from a Marker, as you have to start with them somewhere ;)



Yes, I know what TL does. :smile:
How's this though? Squad A MLs for B, who MLs for C who MLS for A. In a triangle of favors, eh? Is that kosher/legal/legit?

Fal'Shia Mont'Ka Vendrak wrote:However I wouldn't suggest such a thing anyway, as they would probably be wasted on the Firewarriors. If you get the chance to score a Markerlight-hit on an enemy squad, you should let one of your really hard hitting units profit from it, like an Ionhead (which then only needs to roll a 2+) or one of your Crisis units. The additional 3 pulse hits you get for that Markerlight would probably be a bit of a waste ;)


I agree. The effectiveness of the FWs is quite low. And the ML hits would probably be better for the 4 suits and the Ion head.

Still, I, like my fictional commander must make do with what I have. And I cannot field 1850 points without a few dozen FWs.
---------------------------------------------------------
Still at the drawing board:

Have them sweep one direction and merely play hide and seek, simply running for objectives?

Is there truly no way to have them be remotely effective in this scenario?

What would a savvy general do?

-Brother Erekose

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Fal'Shia Mont'Ka Vendrak
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Post#14 » Nov 27 2006 10:33

I'm sure it clearly states that. Where though? (flips pages in the Codex:CSM, from page 12 on). What page would that be on?

Page 19 would that be. Note that it lacks a page number (brilliant layout-job :roll: ), but it certainly follows page 18 :)
Yes, I know what TL does.
How's this though? Squad A MLs for B, who MLs for C who MLS for A. In a triangle of favors, eh? Is that kosher/legal/legit?

Aaaah now I see where you're coming from ;)
The problem is that the Target Lock does not make the Shas'Ui become an independent entity for the purposes of shooting. So if he shoots the rest of the squad has to do so too. So C couldn't markerlight for A, as A would have already shot ;) That's what I meant by "it has to start somewhere" ;)
I agree. The effectiveness of the FWs is quite low. And the ML hits would probably be better for the 4 suits and the Ion head.

Still, I, like my fictional commander must make do with what I have. And I cannot field 1850 points without a few dozen FWs.

Obviously, but with 2 tanks the stealth squad and the XV8s, I just wanted to recommend to contribute the Markerlights to those units, before using them for the Firewarriors. Obviously, if nobody else is there to use them, the Firewarriors should use them (or if for one reason or another, it seems likely that they are going to make better use of them, if for example the Firewarriors are in Rapidfire range or something similar :) ).
Still at the drawing board:

Have them sweep one direction and merely play hide and seek, simply running for objectives?

Is there truly no way to have them be remotely effective in this scenario?

What would a savvy general do?

I'm actually quite a big fan of Firewarriors, but usually not in those quantities. I'd really suggest doing what Eiglepulper recommended, to have your warriors take turns of shooting and slowly avoiding the Deathguard.
I'm using them the same way and normally works with the support of Kroot. Can't really think of any better use you could make of them, at least no other option that wouldn't include Devilfishes or Carbines (and the Carbines aren't of much use against the Deathguard anyway, as they do even less to them, as they normally do to other Marines, which is already nothing to speak of).
Just bring those 36 Warriors to the table, and use them that way, and you should do fine :)
Ah, yes, mere infantry - poor beggars... - Plautus

BrotherErekose
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Ack! pth!

Post#15 » Nov 27 2006 11:44

Fal'Shia Mont'Ka Vendrak wrote:
I'm sure it clearly states that. Where though? (flips pages in the Codex:CSM, from page 12 on). What page would that be on?

Page 19 would that be. Note that it lacks a page number (brilliant layout-job :roll: ), but it certainly follows page 18 :)

Grr. I was just turning to the Vet. Skills section as I came back to the keyboard and reloaded the thread! Isn't that alwyas the case?
:)

Fal'Shia Mont'Ka Vendrak wrote:Aaaah now I see where you're coming from ;)
The problem is that the Target Lock does not make the Shas'Ui become an independent entity for the purposes of shooting. So if he shoots the rest of the squad has to do so too. So C couldn't markerlight for A, as A would have already shot ;) That's what I meant by "it has to start somewhere" ;)

...(think, think). Right. All of an army's shooting *isn't* simultaneous. Shooting procedures:
1. Nominate a unit to shoot. Pick its target. Resolve.
2. Nominate 2nd unit to shoot, etc.

That breaks my triangle 'daisy chain'. Unit A will have already shot when Unit C tries to ML for it.

Dang, being a SM player is still infering with the Tau shooting procedures. For SMs, that isn't an issue.
:(

Fal'Shia Mont'Ka Vendrak wrote:I'd really suggest doing what Eiglepulper recommended...
I'm using them the same way and normally works with the support of Kroot. Can't really think of any better use you could make of them, at least no other option that wouldn't include Devilfishes
Just bring those 36 Warriors to the table, and use them that way, and you should do fine :)


Well, I will try the "Rolling Withdrawal" -?-

Thanks heaps for the input, Vendrak.
---------------------------------
My intent then, has evolved to:
Use the suits and 'heads to put some hurt on his units, while keeping any FWs away in general, with occassional ML help. To make up points, I'll put in a Gun Drone squadron or two (shudder) and the 6 pack o' Vespids (cough) and pretty much keep them hopping around outta trouble. (cough, ack)

Once his far fewer scoring units are slightly halved and damaged (below scoring), my far greater number of scoring units will seize objectives. Sorta a "Horde of Scoring Units" tactic...?

I'll trade mark that.
:crafty:

'Course, will that work in Annihilate? Seems like a chicken way to go. Like a boxing match where the over matched opponent stays on his bike round after round.

I like my 40k bloody.

-Brother Erekose

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samuraioshovah
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Post#16 » Nov 28 2006 12:42

Use the Vespids (Cough) and drones (hack) as moving screens of fire that stay close to the kroot (vomit twice) up front. That keeps the Marines at home while the fws can pour out shots at 30" at those that break the lines and gun them down. When the marines get to close the lines of vespid and drones fall back into the 30" kill zone and melt whoever comes along.
Mobile Armor Division...71-12-11 2014 Season 14-4-3

BrotherErekose
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Barf. Retch.

Post#17 » Nov 28 2006 12:55

samuraioshovah wrote:Use the Vespids (Cough) and drones (hack) as moving screens of fire that stay close to the kroot (vomit twice) up front.


Lol. I should thought of that.

samuraioshovah wrote:That keeps the Marines at home while the fws can pour out shots at 30" at those that break the lines and gun them down. When the marines get to close the lines of vespid and drones fall back into the 30" kill zone and melt whoever comes along.


Nicely put. I'll cut and paste it on the 'crib sheet' I'm complining.

-Brother Erekose

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samuraioshovah
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Post#18 » Nov 28 2006 02:20

Always glad to contribute...
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