Defeating my [Eldar] Cousin

A review of past Alien Tactics by commanders during the First and Second Phase Expansion.
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Colonel Marksman
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Defeating my [Eldar] Cousin

Post#1 » Nov 30 2006 08:44

I need help defeating him.

One of the only reasons I couldn't ever beat him lies in 3 words: crystal targeting matrix. Which, apparently for the new Eldar doesn't exist. So, if I wanted to get close enough to get him with the SMS, I'd have to brave coming into his range of all his other weapons.

Like I said, he's too cautious about his army's safety, so, if I have an opening to take out anything big of his, its going to come at an enourmous cost to me. Remember, he treats 40k like chess. Every unit backs up the other. The Tau, I love, because if I'm patient enough, I can find a tiny opening and take the opportunity to kill him without getting myself in danger. It's the only way I can really beat him. Otherwise, its a giant stalemate or my loss for going out after him. This is why he fears the Tau. If I catch one hole in his positioning, I take him out. With almost any other army I field, I can see the hole, and he knows it, but I can't do anything about it. The other army he fears are the Hycrymen, because, in the case of having 3 Basilisks, it doesn't matter how he's positioned: he's going to lose something. In such a case, he will cautiously and efficiently sweep the board, carefully picking units to wipe out to set up his new positions (basically, redeploy) within 36" with all his forces. Then your cornered. The only place to get him now is behind his own lines (which is usually protected by an Avatar or Wraithlord... you're lucky if its both).

His second favorite army is Tau, and in Tau terms, he uses his deployment zone and my deployment zone as bait for a Mont'Ka tactic. If I don't take the bait (moving onto the battlefield or I get smart with him), he always has Plan B, C, and D. And he even tells me what he's thinking sometimes. "Plan A doesn't look like its going to work, Plan D seems a bit risky but could possibly destroy you, and Plan B and C are going to take awhile but are safer alternatives." In one game, I made the mistake of believeing he's pulling my leg (1,500 to 0 in a 1,000 pnt game).

As the saying goes, "A good commander doesn't take risks. He simply waits for his enemy to do so."

Colonel Marksman. The type of opponent you are playing is going to require you to get him to play your game. My basis on any list is to have your plan and make the enemy follow you. The getting the initiative part is the waiting for your opponent to make a mistake. But as we see in even tick tac toe, a wrong move early will eventually cause your loss.

I would try playing as eldar.
I always recommend forming a tangable plan and executing it.
If you are playing by the book it starts as early as terrain placement right through to rolling to see who goes first.

Missions as well.

I take great pride in my terrain placement meta game.

I see. I am actually going to field 2 Eldar armies against him to help him figure them out and see how well they fair, but I will keep these in mind.

As for terrain set-up, the usual way we do it is, one person sets up the terrain, and the second person chooses the deployment zone. He doesn't go as far as to base his entire army on the board either. He simply makes something interesting, though, its usually symmetrical (he's growing out of that though).

Concerning making him play my game: A rather difficult thing to do when you're playing Eldar (who seemed to be designed for that). If you're talking about forcing him to come out after me, its very difficult to make him budge. Now, I can move him with Witch Hunters, very easily. It's all about rounding up your opponent. The tricky part is, when I have him where I want him... what do I do? I finally discovered that my neglection to use the right units for the job was my problem.

LOL! I was studying Sun Tzu's The Art of War for help, only to discover that my cousin follows the book like a religion without ever knowing of its existence. Other than this, I am figuring out some things and improvements of my own.

Having studied my games with him, I can honestly say that what intimidates him the most are long-ranged powerful or potential weapons. Example: snipers with special rules (Vindicare Assassin), rail/ionheads, Basilisks, etc. He has a lot of respect for those things I put a lot of effort into creating or using: Monoliths, Land Raiders, Hammerheads, Terminators, anything that Deep Strikes. The one thing he fears above them all, almost, is my Shas'o Commander Dram'Ka.

But, anyway, more thoughts?
Tau overpowered? No, everyone else is under.

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Kor'Ui
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Post#2 » Nov 30 2006 09:08

Along with what I mentioned before I would add you might want to watch him play a game against some other ppl. Theres no better prespective than a nuteral one from a learning point of view.

I would also like to add that I wish my opponents were as skilled as you portray your cousin to be. The best way to learn is to loose over and over. A great opponent is hard to find, If you know one I would suggest learning and having loads of fun from it.
For now I don't write Tacticas, I inspire them.

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Post#3 » Nov 30 2006 09:46

That's true. Losing 400 games to him has been fun. (Seriously. We've been playing for 6 years, and play an average of some 60-100 games a year average.)

However, I would also like to add that it never tires (for those who don't know). Because we proxie, and because he's Eldar, he's never played the same army construct more than 5x. This means, yes, he has played me with some 80 different armies and tactics.

Learning from him playing with others, he finds playing Necrons and tough Tyranids with Deep Strike somewhat difficult, and hates fighting Chaos (he has lost some to Chaos, twice to Necrons). The other army he hates fighting, of course, are the Tau.
Tau overpowered? No, everyone else is under.

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Post#4 » Dec 07 2006 04:50

My cousin and I will be having a great many battles this Christmas time.
There will be three big differences between my last, continuous failures and the battles that will ensue in the near future (next week!!! :eek: ):

1. ATT. The FoF, my new interest in FireKnife, and most especially my tweeked strategies that have been added to my brain (including more use of math). ATT will be put to my ultimate test.

2. Sun Tzu's "The Art of War" studies. This gave me an unexpected look into my cousin's mind in great detail and how he works and how to possibly defeat him. Sun Tzu will be my personal guide.

3. New Eldar. The new Eldar, as I have bought the Codex for him as a gift (and am taking almost a month's time to study it inside and out) may help curve my knowledge. Knowing more about his forces than he does is an exceptional advantage. The new Eldar Codex will be my spy.

Including Tau and other armies, I've got 15 different lists prepared for all-out fun, his destruction, and my testing.

Geez... you don't know how hard this guy is to beat! :dead:
Tau overpowered? No, everyone else is under.

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Post#5 » Jan 03 2007 05:05

WELL... The results of my games are in.

Previously, I determined (not joking) I used to win 1:40 games. (It took me 40 losses before I won something) These include our strange "illegal-made-up games" with bizarre rules or units we made ourselves.

Interestingly enough, my standard Tau armylist lost. For once, lost. In fact, the turn Dram'Ka came out, my cousin fired everything he had in range at him (6 Fire Dragons, 3 Shuriken Cannons, and 5 twin-linked shuriken catapults). He also came out far away from where he was intended.
I had upperhand at the beginning of the game, and thought for sure I was going to win, but the stupid forest we set up some 30" long saved his butt 3x from my Ion Cannon. Eventually, at the end of the game, He shot 2 Shuriken Cannons and 12 Fire Dragons at my last remaining Gun Drone (which was falling back).

That aside, I also played a supremely successful Army of the Inferno. A Battle Sister's list with more AP:1 weapons than AP:5. It obliterated his army very well. This was the third victory the Battle Sisters ever had.

I fielded an elite Imperial Guard list, which lost, but barely. Every unit was special or elite in some way (Storm Troopers and Veterans). To his surprise, I fielded a Basilisk without the Indirect Fire upgrade, which threw him off when he moved 12" away and in line-of-sight of my two Basilisks.

Another Imperial Guard list I did not count on winning. 11 mortars and 3 Basilisks, but in the end, it did enough damage to get a victory.

The Tyranids were also satisfied with victories they could never remember having before. The Tyranid Spyder (a Tyranid I devised from the Biotitian from Chapter Approved) at 825 points wasn't fast enough, but survived and wiped out his most expensive unit in two turns easy. The rest of the game was a wild goose chase. I could've upgraded it to count as being winged, (which was my original intent) but I didn't know I could field it that way (though it already had Deep Strike) My x6 Ripper Swarms actually took out a few models and my x3 Warriors didn't stand a chance, but the Spyder scared the crap out of him. Now THAT, my friends, is the Hive Fleet Metal.

I decided to field the Spyder again, WITH wings, but when it came out of Deep Strike, I rolled 2 ones. That was my 3rd terrible defeat in a 3-way match.

However, my unmerciful Tyranid list (fielding every unit I never field) consisted of 3 Biovores, 2 Lictors, Genestealers, Broodlord, and 9 Raveners. This list was very... risky, and I didn't believe I could win with it either (not after he revealed 8 Shadow Weavers). However, I got 36 shots and 36 close combat attacks to deal with Prince Yreal (sp?) and his 9 Fire Dragons. Well... they were wiped out easy. The other 3 easily destroyed his jetbikes and carved a hole in his line of Shadow Weavers. We tied that game.

My victorious slaughters came from Chaos and the Demon Hunters. My cousin questions my Demon Hunters' victory as my lone Inquisitor with a storm bolter destroyed a Vyper, Immobilized another (destroying it), and stunned another. In combat, he was so mad, he charged with his Farseer and 5 Jetbikes (who all shot at him first). No matter what, the Inquisitor refused to die, wounded the Farseer, and killed 2 Jetbikes. He was worth 25 points. The only reason I had him was so that I could get my Orbital Strike.
Also in that game, I fielded (for once) a Dreadnought. This didn't do as much damage as I hoped, but the Deamon Hunters that came out behind it forced my cousin's other Vypers into hiding.
My HQ choice, 5-man count, unleashed the slaughtering house by destroying another 5 Vypers.
.... I should've mentioned he fielded 9 Vypers. At the end of the game, he had like 2. I was really scared I was going to lose.

My Chaos list had 1 severe casualty: the Lord who died from his own plasma pistol! He destroyed a Vyper in the process though. I put my 7 Chosen and Lord on Bikes and they did a great deal of damage, despite being several hundred points.
The Chaos Defilers are WICKED!!! I had two of them, neither of which were touched (both still mobile), though my cousin directed his attention to them almost to the fullest. He said the big reason I won was because my Chosen and Lord managed to get to the rear armor of the Fire Prism early in the game, which destroyed all his hopes of strategy.

I tested the Genestealer Cult on a larger scale against an army my cousin said was a very poor Eldar army. The two pitiful armies clashed and my Genestealer Cult was wiped out to a man. I must admit, they put up a good fight, but my cousin's positioning was much better than mine.

It was really strange, I was watching my cousin place units in certain places and I would scratch my head as to WHY? Apparently, he must've thought he was safe where he put them, that and/or I was able to better recognize terrain and out-strategize my cousin.

The two weaknesses he has are these:
1. He counts every single model too precious to die
2. He has a great sense of revenge, even against little-threat models

His play style I have also discovered (against my armies) has changed from forcing me to play his game to defend with attack. (Run up and defend basically.) Those were scary tactics, but he was forced to do them because I didn't play his game.

In one instance, I gave him first turn. He handed me the measuring tape (which signifies the exchange of turns) when I asked him, "why did you give this to me?"
"Err...."
"You have first turn."
His face flushed white. He told me he had every strategy imaginable for whatever I did, but giving him turn one forced him to make moves first.

Sooooooo,
I went from 1:40 to 1:3 wins, with an even number of victorious slaughters as he did, a (what I believe) is a 1333% increase in my gaming someone told me.

The funniest thing, though, was how I was able to predict him and surprise him as he questions if I became a psyker or something. He could no longer fool me, he says, now he has to work hard to do it.
Last edited by Colonel Marksman on Jan 06 2007 06:11, edited 1 time in total.
Tau overpowered? No, everyone else is under.

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midnight
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Post#6 » Jan 03 2007 11:08

You realise the double ones don't kill you on a deep strike now? They thought the idea of 2/3 types of games having units that die without ever even trying to do anything dangerous was just stupid.

Good job with the progress.
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Post#7 » Jan 03 2007 11:19

midnight wrote:You realise the double ones don't kill you on a deep strike now? They thought the idea of 2/3 types of games having units that die without ever even trying to do anything dangerous was just stupid.

Good job with the progress.


-- Well I'll be... it was never a big problem for us anyway. Deep Strikers always landed within 2/3rds of our satisfaction, and were almost never destroyed. Aside from once way back when, the first time we've had ANY casualties from Deep Strikers was this past year (2006).
Tau overpowered? No, everyone else is under.

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Post#8 » Jan 06 2007 06:18

The five fundamentals I learned from talking with other players and watching documentaries (as well as my own careful observations) were the following that changed my mind from the old and recent engagements:

1. Mobility is key in warfare
2. Open ground is terrain
3. My cousin's weakness was that he counted his units as real lives
4. My cousin couldn't be outsmarted
5. Don't play his game -- make him fight on YOUR terms

I also realized one of my own strengths:

The ability to improvise and take my opponents by surprise.
Tau overpowered? No, everyone else is under.

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kai'lore
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Post#9 » Jan 06 2007 10:31

Congratualtions on your new observations, they aren't bad and I also wanted to take the opportunity to compliment you on another of your strengths, the ability to have 6 of the 8 replies in a single thread. That is, the ability to both answer and carry a thread on your own.

That's no simple feat, and you even started the thread! :biggrin:
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Post#10 » Jan 06 2007 11:42

kai'lore wrote:Congratualtions on your new observations, they aren't bad and I also wanted to take the opportunity to compliment you on another of your strengths, the ability to have 6 of the 8 replies in a single thread. That is, the ability to both answer and carry a thread on your own.

That's no simple feat, and you even started the thread! :biggrin:


"Hey, Napoleon. What did you do last summer again?"
"I told you! I spent it with my uncle in Alaska hunting wolverines!"
"Did you shoot any?"
"Yes, like 50 of 'em! They kept trying to attack my cousins, what the heck would you do in a situation like that?"
"What kind of gun did you use?"
"A freakin' 12-gauge, what do you think?"

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Post#11 » Jan 06 2007 03:16

That was actually pretty funny, despite me not big on Napolean.

Thanx for the comment. I have lots of experience with multi-posting. :crafty:
Tau overpowered? No, everyone else is under.

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kai'lore
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Post#12 » Jan 06 2007 08:50

that was pretty funny Atomic. Multi-posting skills, bo-staff skills and computer hacking skills.

I have this friend, Pedro, and he has the best moustache in our high school, a sweet bike and is good with chick.

I wonder if he has ever taken that bike off any sweet jumps?
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Post#13 » Jan 06 2007 09:12

He got, like, 3 feet of air one time. Gosh!


Perhaps we have strayed off topic?

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GTOnizukadude
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Post#14 » Jan 06 2007 09:38

Maybe, but you could say the SM shotgun is a 12 gauge... and that your cousin is a wolverine who likes attacking himself...

Ok, nevermind.
Ionheads never die. Ever <3
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Post#15 » Jan 06 2007 10:50

:) I find it amusing when people look at me funny about him.

I suppose if I told you he left High School work at 14, you'd say something more ridiculous? (Or rather, took college classes while he was "still in high school")

I could also say he's a secret agent for the government, or saved my life. What about the time he worked for NASA, and he can't tell you about any of it, but for some strange and odd reason, told me and now I'm blurting it to the world. :crafty:

And you're saying its terribly unfeasable? Saying he was a ninja and killed people is quite a bit harder to swallow as opposed to a detailed list of gaming techniques for a cadet in Civil Air Patrol.

After my severe number of posting about him, stepping back and aweing at how invincible he was turned the tables. I realized that, after reading my posting about him so much I was able to figure out how his mind worked.

And which ATT member told me "not to play his game"? That worked very efficiently.
Tau overpowered? No, everyone else is under.

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GTOnizukadude
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Post#16 » Jan 06 2007 11:13

Is he also a 00 agent?

Too bad I've got the ultimate instapwn tactical maneuver vs. anyone...

Do a barrel roll! (tap Z or R twice!) Edit: ...stupid word filters. R is a button, not a word. Pfft. Edit again: Fixed it!

Seriously though, try giving your cousin the same advice you got/stuff you learned. That way you'll both have to improve, figure out new tactics, etc.
Last edited by GTOnizukadude on Jan 07 2007 10:10, edited 2 times in total.
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Post#17 » Jan 06 2007 11:17

Actually, I did. I told him what all I've been doing over the years wrong, and what I should've done, and what I'm doing. He pointed out that we even managed to somehow mentally switch tactics between the new Tau and Eldar. (He believes there was a scam to make the Eldar more Tau-like and the Tau more Eldar-like when the new Tau Codex came out).

And, come on, the barrel roll? What about Sam Fischer's twirling between doorways? (My friends overexaggurate it by twirling 5x in the doorway to the other side)... and you never see it...

and he might be a 00 agent, but I'M a .00001 agent! :eek:
Tau overpowered? No, everyone else is under.

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