Ahhh! Nid's! [Anti-Tyranid Advice needed]

A review of past Alien Tactics by commanders during the First and Second Phase Expansion.
KrootMyrmidon
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Post#19 » Dec 14 2006 05:02

For me, one extra wound isn't impressive due to instawhacking, one extra attack isn't impressive due to my thoughts on tau assaulting, one extra leadership is nice, but for twenty five points? I personaly just don't see it as being worth it. In a good sized battle I could justify in my mind that I can blow twenty five points on something I otherwise wouldn't consider, but then I would have to ask myself, why? Is it just a desire to put the model with the best stats on the board, or is there some actual advantage to using an o rather than an el? When I answer myself, so far it's always been a no.
Soon to be constructing the Frankenfish.

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Spooky
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Post#20 » Dec 14 2006 05:42

KrootMyrmidon, some times you have to charge with your shas'la though.

eg my game on tuesday, i had my crisis castled up behind a building. kroot in a wood 2' in front, but they got tankshocked out and broken. they ran backwards, banshees jump out a serpent and charge the kroots, kill them and consolidate into firewarriors (just)

so then, 8 banshees are going to slice FW into bits, in my phase, and come out of combat into the eldar player's turn and get to charge my suits. can't allow this to happen, so i charged 280pts worth of fireknifes into the banshees.

normally a bad idea, but it stopped me getting charged by them, so i get the +1 attack rather than him. i lost my FW, and some of the suits, and lost a lot of shots from the suits against his skimmers, but won the combat in the end. this was the best course of action. sometimes you have to charge.



anyway, against normal nids, you want skimmers and volume of shots. fireknives to kill the synapse.

against godzilla, you're screwed. only shots you'll get is JSJ, so again fireknifes, but you're totally on the defensive.

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midnight
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Post#21 » Dec 14 2006 09:23

I run 2 units of stealths and they actually do great even against hormagaunts cause I can generally be assured of 1 round of shots ripping the buggers to heck and then when I get charged, I actually kill quite a few since I go first. Their armor holds the fight to a draw or sometimes even a win for me. Genestealers ruin your day, but you should always be jumping away from them and trying to keep them away until there is only one or two. You might just win that fight... maybe. Expect to be able to avenge the stealths anyway...

Both my railheads pound tyrants and gunny fexes and the ionhead takes out any 3+ save fex and tyrant guard. Piranhas just run forward and giggle as they tend to force the fexes to either not shoot my railheads cause they want to charge them or get charged by stealers that aren't moving forward.

A list tailored to handle MeQ with a good balance to kill GeQ as well rips apart nids since they are almost exactly that force you are geared for.
For the Greater Go'ould! Whoops, wrong genre.

Kamandi
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Post#22 » Dec 17 2006 05:20

I've got an anti-Tyranid question, so here it goes.

A buddy of mine plans on field some Lictors in our next game (1,000pts). Knowing his pre-Lictor list, I can't imagine him fielding more than two.

So what's the best way to deal with Lictors? They appear to be ruthlessly efficient and dangerous Deep Strikers, but it also looks like they'll drop as easily as anything else after that.

I'm fielding a fully mechanized Tau force. Two 6-man FW teams in Warfish, two SMS Railheads, a team of 2 Firestorms, a Fireknife Monat, and an 'el with PR, MP, and Burst (I think). So if I can avoid the Lictor's initial shock and awe, I can probably render it unable to ever attack me.

My thinking right now is to keep about 7 inches back from area terrain edges where possible, wait for them to pop, then shove all the S5 shots I can spare at them. Maybe position a sacrificial Crisis near enough to an area terrain to make it irresistable to draw the Lictor out and punish it with a thousand shots.

There's another, much more sinister option. I could intentionally set up one side of the board to have ample area terrain in a deployment zone. If I get to choose sides, I'll take it. If he gets to choose sides, he'll want me to take it so that he can DS right into the heart of my forces and ruin me.

But we tend to play with relatively small pieces of area terrain. Like so small I can't even fit a 10-man Kroot squad in them. I could rearrange some points, slap some Sensor Spines on a couple skimmers, and juggle their movement to always keep one skimmer in the area terrain. Hammerheads might be best for this since they've got enough range to hang back anyway. So when he DS, he's got to deploy into the terrain, which puts him on one of my units, which destroys the Lictor instantly. Or he's got to DS way off where he can't cause immediate trouble. Either way, he's blown a wad of points on a non-scoring unit that completely failed to deliver its intended punch.

Thoughts?

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Prophaniti
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Post#23 » Dec 17 2006 05:42

Your last paragraph hits the nail on the head. Occupy any terrain likely to be usefully used by a lictor for the start of your opponent's turn 2. When it appears it will either die or appear miles away where it can be shot.

In my experience they don't hit hard enough by themselves to even trouble firewarriors anyway.
Nach dem spiel ist vor dem spiel

Kamandi
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Post#24 » Dec 17 2006 06:17

Actually, do I need the Sensor Spines? The Skimmers can hover over the forest, and the Lictor is presumed to leap into the area terrain, so it'd still have to pass through the Skimmer, which it can't do, therefore taking it out of play because it can't be deployed legally.

I could see the argument that since the Lictor doesn't "land" on the Skimmer over the forest, it can still Deep Strike into the forest. But, on the other hand, it's not like you can park your Hammerhead on top of enemy units, so enemy units shouldn't able to move through your parked Hammerhead. But the Lictor isn't on the table until it lands, and I have a hard time claiming that it's possible for any unit to make an illegal movement/deployment prior to arriving on the table.

Yeesh, I dunno. Maybe it's worth taking the Spines just to avoid coming down to a roll off.

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Prophaniti
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Post#25 » Dec 17 2006 06:26

Sorry, I wasn't referring to the vehicles. Use your 6-man expendible FW teams.
Nach dem spiel ist vor dem spiel

Kamandi
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Post#26 » Dec 17 2006 08:14

That's just crazy enough to work!

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MoRmEnGiL
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Post#27 » Dec 18 2006 08:21

Pheww,lets see.

Vs a swarm army I'm tempted to say use 3 railheads with burst cannons and call it a day. solid shots waste any tyrants/fexes around and submunition shots really do gaunts and warriors in.
For additional help vs warriors use missile pods,for aditional help vs TMC use plasma,and even fusion vs the flyrant is a good idea.

Loadsa pulse rifle fire is also da pain for swarm 'nids,you don;t even have to be mechanised,i obliterated a huge nid swarm twice with a static mostly list.I just stood and shot.All of them.
Of course synapse has to go first,so first turns i fired submunition rounds and missile pods to warriors,and plasma/fusion to tyrant.After that it gets really messy for the poor bugs.. In the first game he didn;t even make it to CC with anything other than the flyrant,who promptly won the combat and was left out in rapid fire range of plasma crisis suits. :evil:

As for zilla lists..it is an ouch situation with a full mech army..just do the venom cannon bearers as fast as possible and stay out of los as much as possible.Good luck anyhow..

I have always preferred a hybrid list,parts mech,parts static.

The lictor i never feared. I tend to occupy most terrain in my deplayment zone anyway,so often it is risky to use lictors. And even if they arrive,at most the can tie up a FW or crisis squad,often not even that.
War..
War never changes..

Kamandi
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Post#28 » Dec 20 2006 10:00

Just a quick question.

A single Lictor used Deep Strike, scattered, and landed less than 1" from my Crisis Suit. Was that Lictor destroyed as per the Deep Strike rules on page 84 of the BGB, or does part of his magical "I'm a Lictor and get to Deep Strike with surgical precision" make him immune to that?

I was arguing for the Lictor's destruction in tonight's game, but the other player kept saying "It's just stupid if an 80pt model can be killed like that." I let him live 'cause I'm a I'm not a jerk, but it literally ended up costing me the game so now I want to know how this works 100% for sure with ruels/passages/page numbers I can cite so it doesn't happen again.

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Tamoio
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Post#29 » Dec 23 2006 05:25

Apart from that special rule regarding deep striking only in terrain and being able to charge right away, lictors are indeed destroyed if arriving within 1" of an enemy model.

Canny nid players deploy lictors in the corner of the area terrain. That way, if the scatter dice doesn't land a hit, the lictor will often scatter to the edge and hardly move from the place chosen by the owning player.

If you're gonna deploy on area terrain, try to occupy as much of that terrain as possible to make deploying the lictor that a risky proposition.

If someone tries to come up with a rule like that in the future, just kindly ask for him to show to you that "special rule" on his codex.

Kamandi
Shas
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Post#30 » Dec 23 2006 06:19

Yeah, I already talked about it with the dude after getting my hands on the Tyranid Codex without the pressure of going through all the rules at the game (we were really pressed for time). He accepted that he made the wrong call and that the game would've gone in a very different direction had it been done right.

And, yeah, I'm not too worried about Lictors in future games. It popped on Turn 2 and I already had every inch of Area Terrain covered with disembarked Fire Warriors or Crisis Suits. He only managed to get the Lictor out because he broke the rules and that won't be happening any more. I kinda feel sorry for him because he plans on employing two Lictors from now on. I just see it as giving me a 160pt headstart :)

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Eiglepulper
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Post#31 » Dec 24 2006 03:17

I'm just going to back up what Shasolenzabi said further back up the thread: Flechette Dischargers are a wonderful upgrade to take not just against Nids but also against any assault-based army, particularly if the army has units which must assault the nearest enemy unit or squad.

I played a 6k game recently against World Eaters where the Tau were defending a building which the CSM had to take over and hold for a turn. We set up a Fish Wall, all of which were upgraded with FDs, and the Khornate Rush was severely broken upon this wall. They *had* to assault the vehicles, so we gave them a little nasty surprise.

Tank shocking also helped, even though the enemy was Fearless, because they were then obliged to assault the vehicles which walloped them first. One particular unit lost 3 members out of its remaining 4 to FDs. It was fun.

Of course, the DFs did move around to keep them getting the SMF rule, but once they were smashed to the ground, the FW teams then received the 4+ cover save and also struck first in combat against the CSM, which had some surprising results.

Against Nids, with the Little Guys having the higher save (5+, is it?) they should lose more members to FDs than did the CSM. In my experience, FDs = XXpts well spent on your vehicles.

E.

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Eiglepulper
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Post#32 » Dec 24 2006 03:33

Kamandi wrote:Just a quick question.

A single Lictor used Deep Strike, scattered, and landed less than 1" from my Crisis Suit. Was that Lictor destroyed as per the Deep Strike rules on page 84 of the BGB, or does part of his magical "I'm a Lictor and get to Deep Strike with surgical precision" make him immune to that?

I was arguing for the Lictor's destruction in tonight's game, but the other player kept saying "It's just stupid if an 80pt model can be killed like that." I let him live 'cause I'm a I'm not a jerk, but it literally ended up costing me the game so now I want to know how this works 100% for sure with ruels/passages/page numbers I can cite so it doesn't happen again.


The Lictor is definitely history. The only models I know of that do not get destroyed when Deep Strike would have them land on enemy/friendly units are the Monolith and the Drop Pod. (Remember that when DS'ing, you cannot land on your own troops either - p.15 BGB second Paragraph of Movement Distance).

The rules references are:

Deep Strike: P.84 BGB. Note the last sentence of paragraph 2: you "roll 2D6" to see how far the model scatters" - you move this distance; you cannot shorten it in order to avoid coming within 1" of enemy units, as the rule does not include the words "move up to", which are used in the Movement Phase rule on p.15 BGB, first paragraph of Movement Distance.

Movement Distance: P.15 BGB, particularly paragraph 2, as mentioned already.

Sounds like you and your opponent handled the whole affair really amicably and well, with the discussion after the game rather than the row in the middle of it!

E.

BrotherErekose
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No Firestorm?

Post#33 » Dec 24 2006 11:15

So, am I to take it that the FireStorm is *not* the most desirable set up for XV8s against tyranids? Due to range? Less effective AP?

I was expecting to read something about it, but after two pages, no soap....

-Brother Erekose

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Tamoio
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Post#34 » Dec 25 2006 11:25

I'm used to play against nids and my take is that the fireknife is an essential part of the list. Apart from railguns we don't have anything to pound on that flying hive tyrant that's gonna be on your face on turn 2/3.

We only have 3 weapons to kill zillas: The fusion blaster, the plasma rifle and the big ole railgun. If you go firestorm your hammerheads aren't gonna be enough...

And we have to consider the possibility that the opposition is gonna shoot back. If he fields an venon cannon he has a good chance to glance your railheads and keep them from firing.

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midnight
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Post#35 » Dec 26 2006 01:04

For 1500 you have 2 els, one fireknife, one helios.
2 6 man stealths
1 smartfish with 12 firewarriors, 10 kroot
2 TA Fusionpiranhas
2 railheads with SMS, 1 ionhead with burst.

You have 3 S8 AP1 guns, 2 S10 Ap1, 2 S6 AP2, and 1 S7 AP3. Cheap fexes hate you fast. If you drop the 2nd stealth team to a Firknife or 2 and then add Flechettes it is even worse.

For 2K it means you bone up on the extra crisis suits and carbon copy the 2 troops.
For the Greater Go'ould! Whoops, wrong genre.

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Colonel Marksman
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Post#36 » Dec 27 2006 01:10

GTOnizukadude wrote:Hey, I can answer part of this! Learning is handy :P

Swarms are easy. Try lots and lots of massed pulse fire. Or, soften them up and use Fish of Fury once you're sure there's few enough that you can kill them in one go. For the tyrant, (I'm not as sure about this part) I think you want to use railguns, so either a broadside or a railhead.

Someone more experienced (everyone) can (please before I hurt someone) correct me ;)


-- You're almost correct. As a 'Nid player, the swarms are sooo easy, you can use the railhead on the swarms!

Krel-Tal, you shouldn't be worried about the Venom cannons etc. The 'Nids don't have very good AP weapons, and if he's short on Heavy Support for swarms like that, you're fine with whatever.

You don't have to worrry about the foot-slogging Carnies because you move around too much (you move in the assault phase remember) and the swarms are very easy. The things you would have to watch out for the most are Infiltrators and Deep Strikers, but they usually can't assault when they come out.

Overall, though, seriously, the only scary thing you have to worry about are the Lictors (if any). Everything else is poor luck if you lose (or extremely poor tactics). Being scared of the 'Nids is great for you.

The Tau have something against anything the 'Nids have.

As to Shasolenzabi... I didn't quite understand what you were saying till someone repeated the greatness of it.

THAT'S INCREDIBLE!!! Where did you come up with that? That tactic must destroy lots of your foes.

Addendum: Godzilla Nids are fantastic against Mech Tau.

-- This is also a saddening but great-for-me statement. Broads are also excellent.

Not what I would suggest, but my suggestions are based on the following bias. Tau do not assault, ever, period, end of conversation.

-- Wrong. See this. I defeated the Dark Eldar in close combat only because I made assaults. 10 Fire Warriors that charge is still 20 attacks. Also, 5 S:5 attacks with the 'O has helped me tremendously.

Now, I do agree that flying Tyrants are the scariest first, but they still only have a 3+ save. Railheads take care of that.

Also, although Broads are great against Zilla armies, Railheads are better against the swarms and the Zillas, are more mobile, and just as much range. I personally don't like Broads actually, but beside the point of the topic.

Against Nids, with the Little Guys having the higher save (5+, is it?) they should lose more members to FDs than did the CSM. In my experience, FDs = XXpts well spent on your vehicles.

-- 6+ is the average, E.

Now... the Zilla army that was most feared in my recent set of matches have been my "side-illegal" Chapter Approved, 875 point Tyranid Spyder. It counts as having wings, Deep Strikes, and though my opponents got all the points for my 6x Ripper Swarms and 3x cheap Warriors, it was destructive and saved my army from getting slaughtered any. The true Hive Fleet Metal way! :)

.... still, the Tau rails would take chunks out of it fairly quickly, its all the same principles.
Tau overpowered? No, everyone else is under.

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