Sooo... how about those new Chaos guys, huh?

A review of past Alien Tactics by commanders during the First and Second Phase Expansion.
Atomic
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Sooo... how about those new Chaos guys, huh?

Post#1 » Sep 27 2007 03:44

Surprised this hasn't come up already. Lash aside (it has its own thread or three), what looks nasty in the new Chaos codex - and more importantly, how do we counter it?

From my reading of the dex, here's what looks nasty.

Plague Marines.
With T5 and FNP, they're basically Necron Immortals that can take special weapons and a powerfist/weapon. They're going to be very tough to put down - even plasma will only be wounding on a 3+ and they'll get a 4+ save. They also go nicely in a

Rhino with Daemonic Possession.
Tactics-wise we don't need to do anything differently. It's the same vehicle, it just ignores shaken and stunned. For a cheap 55pts.

Winged Daemon Princes.
A budget version of the winged Tyrant. Lovely.

Termies.
For 35pts a pop, they can each have a one-shot special weapon. They only need one shot anyway - the turn they teleport in. After that they're attacking with power weapons. They can also be taken in squads of 3 for only 105pts, making them a nice little distraction.

Defilers.
They lost indirect fire, thankfully. They're also not so tough. However, with a Battlecannon, DCCWs, 4 attacks and a TL autocannon for light vehicles (the best config, in my opinion) - coupled with Possession and Fleet - means that with judicious use of cover it could hold a flank all on it's tod. Doesn't break the bank, either.


Those are the ones that jump out at me. Any I've missed? How do you plan on countering them?

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Kunas'Anuk
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Post#2 » Sep 27 2007 03:57

Termies for 35 Points??? :::(
Plus a one shot special? *cries more*
Plague marines have never been any fun... When I used to play Blood Angels, the only thing I found worked was if I avoided them and focused more on his vehicles. Of course, your opponent has to field vehicles for this to work... Massed firepower doesn't really work on them, because as you said, they just get back up!

I've never had the chance to shoot at a winged Tyrant, but, I can imagine a winged daemon prince wouldn't be pretty... thankfully due to "Large creature" (if they have it) we can target it from turn one. Time to start packing on the broadside/railhead shots!

But... I'm not looking forward to playing against them... not at all.
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kai'lore
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Post#3 » Sep 27 2007 05:26

it's a nice book innit? I like all those photo-shop scheme suggestions that looked great with mouse clickery but will never see the light of day at the end of a real-world brush!

Good questions Atomic, still have my thinking cap on. Thanks to new codex good unit nerfing we have some breathing room until the new good units get purchased and spray painted black. I myself like the idea of the plague marines as troops, it's almost like having the good parts of Eldar Pick and Choose but with a side helping of evil marine!

Their options look nice, but they are very spendy. I played at Josh's place on Sunday and melted down Keith Chaos Incarnation 1000pts, will see how it goes next time.

His army was Jump pack Lord of some description, handful of raptors which spawned some Warhammer wing/breasted creatures, 2 Rhinos of a flavour of CM, all Fireknife bait and... I think that's it. Not much in 1000pts.

Anyway, let's hear from someone that has something useful to say! :sad:

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johno
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Post#4 » Sep 27 2007 06:01

I chuckled when I read Abaddon's entry, total hardarse that will give anything pause should he ever get into combat.

Keeping on track with special characters, I think kharn may turn up in more than a few world eater armies. Despite his 'Betrayer' special rule, a chaos general will get pretty good mileage out of him.

Generic Greater Daemons are fairly nasty but somewhat more avoidable now that they aren't flying round on wings.

The basic chaos marine has gone a tad under the radar with all the kerfuffle about the Lash and nerfing of Obliterators and what not but at the same price point as a normal marine he is running around with two close combat weapons, a bolter and enough grenades to supply the black market. Fairly handy if you ask me :)


Beserkers are a pretty good deal as well, now that they are tamed (well tame for pyschotic worhippers of the God of War/Blood/Skulls!) and wont go willy nilly charging into unsavoury sorts. Furious Charge makes them well above average assault units. Glad to see the abolition of Chain Axes/Choppa like weapons, one more non-sensical rule confined to Immaterium. A terrible pun I know, I beg forgiveness!

Finally Obliterators are still a decent threat-despite losing their autocannons they now have joined the plasma fanclub. Getting lashed into 3 plasma cannons will cause trouble for all of our key units.

Overall it is a very solid codex, with the abolition of Iron Warriors the codex is much less prone to abuse. The Dual Lash armies are sure to be abound but there will be an increased amount on downright healthy armies to match it. Hell it has me tempted to collect a Thousand Sons army! :D

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Eiglepulper
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Post#5 » Sep 27 2007 06:40

If you like to field pretty generic CSM armies then this is a brilliant codex. If you're wanting to field armies which reflect all the background fluff then you have a problem.

I compared the two codices the other night. Sheesh, all the work which was put into the old codex re background, special rules etc - all gone to waste.

E.

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Post#6 » Sep 27 2007 06:43

I am not sure of the actual mechanics, but a guy i was playing on tuesday added a sourcerer to his squads that gave them invuln save for the entire squad. Also he was talking about some sort of broken sonic weapon that is either assualt or heavy with different nujmber of attacks each.
Last edited by kirstar on Sep 28 2007 02:59, edited 2 times in total.

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Eiglepulper
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Post#7 » Sep 27 2007 07:24

Yeah, that was all pretty much accurate stuff. One of the Marks gives the Save thingy. Sonic weapons are class.

E.

San'em
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Post#8 » Sep 27 2007 08:32

I already put a thread on this subject, but it got mistaken for a rumour discussion and locked. [kai edit- yes, I just checked and agree with the mods that it was a fair lock. You post in this thread is better than the start one on that one! Arnold says "Stop whining!"]

The thing that worries me the most about the new list are the Raptors: they're cheap as hell for what you get, and can be given all manner of nasty marks and upgrades.

What I'm most happy about is that they nerfed the 2+ save IC of Doom. Now at least you'll be able to kill them with simple pulse fire or even in combat. This goes double for flying Daemon Princes.

Plague Marines certainly deserve our fear and respect, the punishment they can take is astonishing. Between their high point cost and lack of heavies though I still think we can manage them. Just bring plenty of S8+ weapons, and you'll be fine.

Daemons are impressive, but at 13 points and a 5+ save I figure they'll make great targets (a Ninj'O with 2+ save and FNP should be fun against them :D). Greater Daemons will be trickier, but doable (takes 12 BS3 pulse shots to put on a wound ;)).

Spawn are a joke, 40 points presents.

Obliterators pack a punch comparable to our Broadsides, who'll however still win in a shoot-out (taking in account ASS, cover saves and drones).

All in all solid list, and I'm glad they generally brought it to level with other armies.

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Jutami
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Post#9 » Sep 27 2007 09:06

I thought the new termies had a limit to special weapons in their unit, as far as I recall browsing the new dex. I'm not 100% sure though, an can't check right now.

Other than that, I mostly think raptors and oblies will be a pain.

The rest isn't all that special, they are pretty balanced for their price. Even the obliterators aren't that bad, but with the lash that plasmacannon can be a pain.

Cheers

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kai'lore
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Post#10 » Sep 27 2007 09:31

Yes, my eyes flicked to the up to 20 Raptors. My Chaos playing friend seemed non-plussed which I guess is a good thing for the Greater Good...
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Atomic
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Post#11 » Sep 27 2007 10:11

kai'lore wrote:Yes, my eyes flicked to the up to 20 Raptors. My Chaos playing friend seemed non-plussed which I guess is a good thing for the Greater Good...


Yeah - my first reaction was "no-one will actually take 20 raptors/plague/khorne/noise marines," but then I remembered when everyone said the same thing about 'unlimited' seer councils. Put it on the list! How could one take down such a mob?

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Eiglepulper
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Post#12 » Sep 27 2007 10:19

Someone else over on LO has suggested 2 Sorcerers with Lash, 2 units of 20 Berserkers and 9 Oblits. :crafty:

E.

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Dal'yth Dude
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Post#13 » Sep 27 2007 10:27

Huzzah! I can use the Raptor squad I painted oh so long ago and not feel like I'm giving away VPs.

And I now have incentive to paint the 2 squads of RT termies I have along with the 3 squads of Rubrics that have been sitting in a box under my bed for 3+ years.

AFAIK, one will still need railguns to scratch off the Plague Marines. S8 still allows a FNP roll, correct?

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Mal'Caor
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Post#14 » Sep 27 2007 10:42

A couple of my Chaos friends have ben throwing around the words "AP3 bolters" in conjunction with "Thousand Sons". This seems a little worrying to me, and I was wondering whether anyone else has accurate info on this. If it is true, I don't fancy the chances for my stealths!

johno
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Post#15 » Sep 27 2007 10:53

@Dal'yth Dude
Anything that causes Instant Death to a target's original toughness will ignore FNP...ie Strength 8 or greater. FNP does however allow you to take the FNP 'save' against ranged weapons that have an ap equal or lower to your armour value (assuming non instant death of course!) ie They would get a FNP save against our plasma guns but not our fusion guns or seeker missiles.

@Mal'Caor
Thousand Sons do indeed have AP 3 bolters, they also have a 4+ inv save and an aspiring champion with a force weapon. All in all a damn tough unit. If it helps though they are sllooowww, which means you can JSJ to your hearts content before those nasty AP 3 bolters will hurts either crisis or stealth suits

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spec.ops
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Post#16 » Sep 27 2007 12:55

My question is, does Tau's standard CC still cut though most of the new problems dealing with chaos?
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Dal'yth Dude
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Post#17 » Sep 27 2007 02:27

johno wrote:@Dal'yth Dude
Anything that causes Instant Death to a target's original toughness will ignore FNP...ie Strength 8 or greater. FNP does however allow you to take the FNP 'save' against ranged weapons that have an ap equal or lower to your armour value (assuming non instant death of course!) ie They would get a FNP save against our plasma guns but not our fusion guns or seeker missiles.


I was replying to San'em's comment:
Plague Marines certainly deserve our fear and respect, the punishment they can take is astonishing. Between their high point cost and lack of heavies though I still think we can manage them. Just bring plenty of S8+ weapons, and you'll be fine.


So if PM's are T5 (note I didn't say T4(5), then S8 or S9 weapons can still allow the FNP.

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Jutami
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Post#18 » Sep 27 2007 02:38

Dalyth dude wrote:So if PM's are T5 (note I didn't say T4(5), then S8 or S9 weapons can still allow the FNP.

There are no T5 Plague marines. But no a str 8 or 9 weapon can't instant kill anything with T5. You need str 10. The rules is str equal to twice the targets toughness or higher. But anyway, no plague marine will get a FNP against str 8 or higher. Just to be clear. :)

Cheers

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