Sooo... how about those new Chaos guys, huh?

A review of past Alien Tactics by commanders during the First and Second Phase Expansion.
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Eiglepulper
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Post#19 » Sep 27 2007 02:54

Correct, Jutami. For the record, this detail re Plague Marines' Toughness is on pages 25 and 97 of the CSM Codex.

E.

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Dal'yth Dude
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Post#20 » Sep 27 2007 02:58

Atomic's OP states that Plague Marines are T5. I was assuming that is correct, since I haven't read the Codex. So by everybody's agreement S8/9 would still allow a FNP roll.

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Jutami
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Post#21 » Sep 27 2007 03:29

He does say "Basicly" necron immortals. If they had "Static" T5, they'd be "exactly" like Immortals. ;)

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Last edited by Jutami on Sep 27 2007 04:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Dal'yth Dude
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Post#22 » Sep 27 2007 04:06

And if he had written T4(5) just like the previous edition's entry on the Obliterators, there would have been no confusion. ;)

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Eiglepulper
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Post#23 » Sep 27 2007 04:37

So we're all happy to know that the Plague Marines' Toughness value has been sorted out. Good.

E.

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israfel
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Post#24 » Sep 27 2007 08:27

I played a guy using thousand sons and plague marines in the same list.

The 1k sones were termis with that 4+ invul save as well as a smattering of autocannons.

2+/4+ is no joke let me tell you especially when they can stand off at range and pick off skimmers. They were very hard to kill and the fact that the Plague marines were just as tough and moving toward me(thus forcing me to largely ignore the termis) made things all the more troublesome.

I won but just barely which to me is unnaceptable.

Now Imagine if those 1k sons were deepstriking and were in multiples? it's not something I want to think about. *shudders*

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Post#25 » Sep 27 2007 08:44

Those aren't Thousand Sons. Those are Terminators with an Icon of Tzeentch. Thousand Sons are Troops choices with 3+/4+ and AP3 bolters.

Tzeentch Terminators and Plague Marines are a good combo, as they effectively make anything short of a Lascannon useless for their enemies.
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Post#26 » Sep 27 2007 09:12

Dal'yth Dude wrote:And if he had written T4(5) just like the previous edition's entry on the Obliterators, there would have been no confusion. ;)


Those aren't Thousand Sons. Those are Terminators with an Icon of Tzeentch.


Did everybody wake up anal-retentive today?


That list you posted is nasty, E. 1.5k, right? How about this, though - x2 19-20 strong Plague Marine units with an el-cheapo lash sorceror. That's 1000 points, roughly. Sure they're not going anywhere fast, but how could you possibly kill them all?

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kai'lore
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Post#27 » Sep 27 2007 09:46

c'mon guys, a bit more geeky brotherly love going around. You can see if people obviously don't know something yet, from a brand new codex. These aren't commandments you are dolling out from Mt. Sinai to the idolaters but kiddie space man rules. So relax and share.

Meh, too annoyed to contribute now, this really brought me down.
Last edited by kai'lore on Sep 28 2007 11:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Taipan
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Post#28 » Sep 28 2007 05:53

Well, seeing as we are discussing nightmare units from the new codex, here are some of mine;

Winged Daemon Prince, Mark of Tzeentch, Warptime, Wind of Chaos
(205 points)

Now, compared to many HQ's (even HT's) this is expensive, but bear with me. He has 3+ armour and 4+ invul, able to DS, is jump infantry (but a MC), has an AP2 flamer which wounds/glances on a 4+ (re-rollable), and he has five S6 attacks on the charge (ignores armour, re-rolls to hit and wound, rolls 2D6 for armour). Now, unlike in his previous incarnation, he is vulnerable to a railgun hit or Demolisher blast, although the 4+ invul means you'll want to hit him at least twice to be sure. Pretty crazy, and its becoming a pretty common build around the other forums.

5 x Terminators, Icon of Tzeentch, then either combi-melta's or reaper autocannon
(260 points)

As stated previously, those 4+ invul saves are really annoying, and confound most normal attempts to wipe them out (ie mass plasma, ordnance, meltaguns, lascannons). Remember, the new codex says "combi-weapon", not any specifics. I have already read of people using blue-tac to attach and detach plasma/melta/flamer bits pre-game. Totally legal, but cheesy. And of course, reapers are expensive but still very fun.

5 x Chosen, meltagun, 2 x plasma guns, 2 x flamers
(140 points)
I was amazed at how cheap this squad was. 140 is about what most (real) Tac squads cost (ie not las/plas), you get Infiltrate and several special weapons. Sure its small, but I personally would find two of these infiltrated on my flanks downright nasty. Meltagun means you don't wanna risk your Dreadnought, plasma guns mean most elite infantry will wanna steer clear, and flamers will deter basic troops. Perfect harassment unit, and you can get two for just 20 points more than the single Terminator squad I outlined previously.

Aspiring Sorceror with Bolt of Change, 8 x Thousand Sons, Rhino
(304 points)

Pricy, but just like the Daemon Prince, it is worth it. After you use the smokes, you can chuck Bolts of Change from the top hatch with the Sorceror. Even if you get blown up en route, you can still leg it, laying down fire until you reach 12". Then its AP3 goodness :evil: and with 3+/4+ invul saves, the enemy will usually have to concede the objective. Also, if you get charged, at least your Sons will hit at I4, and the Sorceror has his force weapon to deter IC's, so its almost like taking on a normal loyalist Tac squad. Mind you, the assaulters will first have to run the gauntlet of Inferno bolts to reach you, which kinda rules out everything except Terminators. You can always drop them down to a 7-strong squad if you don't feel the need to respect Tzeentch, but i would do it for fluff reasons (and two more rapid-firing Inferno bolters don't hurt).

5 x Possessed, Icon of Tzeentch, Rhino
(200 points)

I think Possessed are the most improved unit (excepting 1k Sons). Now at least, the random powers they get are useful, and if you don't get Scouts or Fleet, you'll still be able to assault with your Rhino. I think Rending will be the most common power you'll get, which makes them better than even Khorne Bezerkers (who kinda got nerfed :-( no more chainaxes). No ranged attacks, but they can't be good at everything :P thats why you buy Terminators.

Ok, well thats all my favourite nightmare units from the new codex. I'm really worried about 1k Sons, I don't think Tau have enough firepower to wipe out squads of them. In a straightup shooting match, they can kill everything except Broadsides and the Sorceror has his assault multi-melta for our tanks. Thoughts?

P.S. When leafing through my copy of the codex, I noticed the artwork of the Possessed in their description shows a Fire Warrior getting his head cut off by one of them.

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Skip
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Post#29 » Sep 28 2007 06:27

@Taipan
You need more Railgun shots to kill this DP because he can't be instakilled anymore..

I think the only disadvantage the new chaos got is, that they come with fewer
scoring units. All units cost more than 200 points, so grabbing objectives might get a little harder for them..

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kai'lore
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Post#30 » Sep 28 2007 11:20

that's right skip. They have some good stuff now but when plonked down you can see the poor guy is scratching his head because it's not much...
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GodHead
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Post#31 » Sep 28 2007 12:48

Actually I think it is perfectly reasonable to continue taking regular bog standard Chaos Marines, and any opponent who does so will have a significant amount of bodies on the table. Also, one of the reasons that the new Raptors are so good is that they are so cheap.

It just seems that everyone is so concerned with the new toys (WOW! T4(5) and FNP!, WOW! AP3 bolters! WOW! 2 Lash Princes!) that they are currently willing to spend 25+ points per model (ppm).

It remains to be seen whether such armies will be truly effective over the long run, or if there will be a move back to armies with a reasonable number of standard units with some elite support.

I honestly don't see how the super-elite 25ppm Troops armies will do well in a tournament with an active meta-game.
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fredgar4
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Post#32 » Sep 28 2007 01:03

Well, one of my buddies who use to work for GW and still has solid contacts.. told me that there will be another book coming out that actually focuses on each chaos type. It will also show the demons specific to each one and not just the generic one/ones listed. He told me the current name for the book, but I forgot it. From what I understand, It will be pretty nasty and definitely give themed lists some bite.
40k and Tau nooblet

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kai'lore
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Post#33 » Sep 28 2007 11:47

true enough GH, they can still take a reasonably cost effective force. Just have to wait for the shininess of the trinkets to wear off.
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Post#34 » Sep 29 2007 12:28

The scariest list I think that CSM's can now field is just lots of standard marines in ten man squads with a plasma gun and a lascannon, and an occassional 35point rhino.

CC - Sorted, they all have two attacks basic...
Ranged (anti infantry) - Sorted, you have how many bolters?!
Ranged (anti tank) - Sorted, well distributed high strength low ap...
Mobility - Cheap Rhinos that are only brought forward in late game to move units onto objectives.

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mjb
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Post#35 » Sep 29 2007 01:08

johno wrote:
@Mal'Caor
Thousand Sons do indeed have AP 3 bolters, they also have a 4+ inv save and an aspiring champion with a force weapon. All in all a damn tough unit. If it helps though they are sllooowww, which means you can JSJ to your hearts content before those nasty AP 3 bolters will hurts either crisis or stealth suits


Although the Slow and Purposeful gives the AP3 bolters a potential range of 30".

12" move from the Rhino, 2" deploy, 24" shot from the bolters, that lets them reach out and touch 38".

Michael

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Jutami
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Post#36 » Sep 29 2007 04:50

MJB wrote:12" move from the Rhino, 2" deploy, 24" shot from the bolters, that lets them reach out and touch 38".

50" inches really, have a model with Lash pull a unit 12" closer. :biggrin: If we're talking maximum potential.

Cheers

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