Sooo... how about those new Chaos guys, huh?

A review of past Alien Tactics by commanders during the First and Second Phase Expansion.
San'em
Shas
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Post#37 » Sep 30 2007 09:34

Plague Marines are scary because they can just walk to our lines, take anything we have, and still have the number to give back. That said if you kill the Rhino they're only 6" move, easy to handle with more mobile elements.

Thousand Sons don't scare me that much, because their fire is most effective against our infantry, which is usually in cover or a 'Fish anyway. In return our infantry kills them just as easily as regular Marines, only they cost 8 points more and can't really charge us (if they do, my Kroot will have them for breakfast). The Sorcerers pack a serious punch, but they're damn expensive and vulnerable to Perils of the Warp.

Tzeentch Icon Termies probably scare me more than Plague Marines, because they have armour save, good invulnerable save and pack heavy weapons, shooting on the move. Plus almost all Chaos units have teleport homers :eek:.

Which makes chosen even scarier, although I'd worry most about them covering my Broadsides in plasma (thank God for ASS).

On regular Marines, lascannon and plasma gun have gone up in price. But yes, they are now probably the best Troop choice in the game, combining armour, combat, shooting and mobility for a reasonable price. Throw in the cults for some elite Troops, and that's one scary army. Maybe I should give my Marine horde another try...

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Afghan Jones
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Post#38 » Oct 01 2007 03:43

Well, at first glance Im not a huge fan.

My army of choice under the old codex was a pure Death Guard force. Now on the one hand, plague marines are now double hard but the whole book feels like its been dumbed down somewhat and the loss of the characterful 4 books of chaos really smarts.

I miss not having proper plague bearers, old style nurgles rot, nurglings, death guard terminators, DG havocs, bonuses for favoured numbers etc.

On the other hand, Raptors, Oblits, etc all opened up for inclusion by DG is nice.

So far I played one game against Eldar which I won. Mostly just because Plague Marines are ridiculously hard.

Like all new codices, over time im sure it will balance out.

(Looking forward to Orks now) :crafty:
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kai'lore
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Post#39 » Oct 01 2007 04:38

I'm interested in that army AJ, any chance of a post in 2nd armies? Have always liked the look of plague marines but didn't want to go all out. Might be my chance for a 1st Chaos army.
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kirstar
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Post#40 » Oct 01 2007 08:56

The plague marines are a huge pain.

That invuln save eats huge amounts of firepower.

San'em
Shas
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Post#41 » Oct 01 2007 10:57

Actually, Plague Marines are not that hard, depending on what you bring. They'll still die in droves to missile launchers, most ordnance weapons, and power weapon attacks (especially the ones that ignore T, like Terminators and Harlequins).

Tau will probably have the hardest time against them. It takes 12 pulse hits to kill one Plague Marine (versus 4.5 against a Marine), while our main anti-MEQ weapons (plasma rifle, rail rifle and to some degree Vespid) will have trouble wounding and won't ignore the FNP ability.

This while railguns are overkill, and fusion blasters are too short ranged. Luckily Plague Marines lack heavy weapons, so if you kill their transport you can try to divert them and focus on the rest of his army.

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Afghan Jones
Shas
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Post#42 » Oct 01 2007 11:20

San'em, thats exactly right, but thats the whole point isnt it, that its only the really heavy hitting stuff that can do the damage.

Against a 'take all comers' list, Plague Marines just shrug off most of what you can throw at them. You do get to the point where only 50% or less of your army can damage them and the rest might as well just pack up and go home.
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T0nkaTruckDriver
Shas'O
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Post#43 » Oct 01 2007 11:25

San'em wrote:This while railguns are overkill, and fusion blasters are too short ranged.


Does your gaming group allow Imperial Armor rules? If so, the Fusionhead would seem to be just what the doctor ordered.

Atomic
Shas
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Post#44 » Oct 02 2007 03:05

San'em wrote:
Tau will probably have the hardest time against them. It takes 12 pulse hits to kill one Plague Marine (versus 4.5 against a Marine), while our main anti-MEQ weapons (plasma rifle, rail rifle and to some degree Vespid) will have trouble wounding and won't ignore the FNP ability.


Actually, I'd say that the title goes to Necrons. I've played 2 1000-point games against the new Nurgle with them, and between the plague marines and the obliterators I just couldn't put them down. Time to get scratching on some heavy destroyers methinks.

San'em
Shas
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Post#45 » Oct 02 2007 07:41

Afghan Jones wrote:San'em, thats exactly right, but thats the whole point isnt it, that its only the really heavy hitting stuff that can do the damage.


Yes, and most all-comer armies have plenty of that, be it missile launchers, lascannons, Fire Prims, Leman Russes, Vindicators, Exorcists... But not Tau. Feels like we're back at the old Codex, when we had trouble with Necrons.

That said, I've tried to think about it from the Nurgle player point of view, and it's not that simple: taking a Rhino limits their squad size and it's likely to die to a single turn of fire. Going on foot takes a lot of time and leaves you chasing a more mobile enemy. Their high point cost also leaves large numbers or large squad sizes out of the question.

But combined with other elements, I think Plauge Marines are a serious threat to the Tau list. I don't use Forge World, so the Ion Cannon is the best solution I can think off (assuming my Broadsides are hunting armour/Obliterators).

Necrons are an interesting point, since their Warriors will also strugle with Plague Marines. That said, Necrons still have access to some serious close combat power, and the Monolith, which will make Nurgle players think twice before advancing.

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Romm'el
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Post#46 » Oct 24 2007 07:14

Hello all :)

This is my first post to the forums. I have been playing Tau since 2002 and really like this forum. So I am glad to throw my two cents in.

I just wanted to throw in a tactic I used verse the new chaos codex that I found to be very effective. Remember the saturation fire rule to force target models in units to make one save from a wound if you do equal to or more wounds than the unit has models.

I simply did 10 wounds to a 7 man thousand son sqaud and made the sorcerer make save. He failed, so the sqaud was then slowed and lost their anti-tank spell. I did the same thing to a terminator sqaud and picked the icon bearer.

Just a little rule to remember. Works well verse most marine armies to pick out Veteran Sergeants and special weapons.

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Archer
Shas
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Post#47 » Oct 24 2007 07:40

Unfortunately for that to work you need to wound everything in a squad... Which with the amount of flak tau can spew out does tend to happen...
Railhammered!

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Total Jones
Kroot
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Post#48 » Nov 26 2007 07:23

TRUE GRIT: The Plague Marines lost it in the new codex. Make sure your chaos partner is aware of this. They can no longer hold that Bolter w/ one hand giving them the +1 attack in CC. Although, they can now get a +1 attack for charging.

Now this may not mean much if you plan to dance around them, but if you wanna tie them up w/ Kroot (or some such CC strategy) it makes a big difference.

This is often overlooked by nurgle players, especially those that have invested all that $$$ into their old plague models and don't wanna change. In fact, it requires that you bend WYSIWYG in order to play by the new rules: the PM boxed sets are behind the times.

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BajsArne
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Post#49 » Nov 26 2007 08:16

They don't need true grit anymore, they have CC and boltpistol in addition to their bolter. So they can shoot before charging, and get a three attacks in total.

I have met them plenty now and I think they aren't that much of a problem because they tend to overestimate how much they can take. BUt taking out their transport is a must of course.
Give us more Auxiliaries!

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fiendil
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Post#50 » Nov 26 2007 08:24

Total Jones wrote:TRUE GRIT: The Plague Marines lost it in the new codex. Make sure your chaos partner is aware of this. They can no longer hold that Bolter w/ one hand giving them the +1 attack in CC. Although, they can now get a +1 attack for charging.

They lost True Grit, but their basic loadout of kit includes Bolter, Bolt Pistol, CCW, and Frag and Blight grenades. If you charge them, they get 2 attacks each, and you lose your bonus attack for charging. If they charge, that's 3 attacks (+ Frag if relevant).
Death before honour.

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toophat
Shas
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Post#51 » Nov 26 2007 09:33

Toophat's Checklist of CSM *Bring Lots of Railguns*

Everything-[Checked]

I have seen the End of the Tau. The forces of Chaos will overwhelm us with ridiculous invurnerable armour saves, weapons with AP4, insta-kill daemon weapons, the 40k equivalent of that morphing Terminator, etc...

Although, I agree that the CSM has been nerfed, due to the loss of the Books of Chaos, they have gained much in return... Examples of these losses include the PM w/ True Grit, Slaanesh psykers w/ the Siren psy-power, and Berserkerz w/ the Khornate Chainaxes. Yet, in return all of these units gained something in return. (Ex. Slaanesh= LoS,Khorne= Plasma Plethora, and Nurgle= FNP) There are many more cases of this type of exchange, yet it is the plan of Tzeentch for us to ponder on such things, while that small cultist plants a meltabomb on our Manta. :fear:

(P.S.- Mods, this is my first post in a great amount of time. Does it still follow ATT standards?)
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Total Jones
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Post#52 » Nov 26 2007 11:30

fiendil wrote:They lost True Grit, but their basic loadout of kit includes Bolter, Bolt Pistol, CCW, and Frag and Blight grenades. If you charge them, they get 2 attacks each, and you lose your bonus attack for charging. If they charge, that's 3 attacks (+ Frag if relevant).


Yes they do get three attacks if charging and carrying a CCW & bolt pistol. What I was saying is that they can no longer do this while carrying the 24" rapid fire bolter as it now takes two hands to carry.

Ryzouken
Shas
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Post#53 » Nov 26 2007 11:38

Unless they, like their unmarked brethren, carry a bp and ccw as well as their bolter, in which case they then could get the bonus attack.

Remember that there is no longer a limit to the number of weapons a model may carry unless specified otherwise in their codex. Thus, a model may carry a bolt pistol, twin lightning claws, and a combi-weapon if their codex entry allows for it.

I just wish I weren't away from codex right now...

San'em
Shas
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Post#54 » Nov 27 2007 04:51

yep, for example Eldar Autarchs come standard with a bolt pistol, but in addition they may take one single-handed weapon and one two-handed weapon. meaning he can run around with a reaper launcher, and still have the additional attack for two close combat weapons

Chaos happens to be the only/first army who's troops also benefit from this rule change

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