1850 Tau Competitive List - new and unique build!

Cadres who fought and bled under 6th edition rules.
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paidinfull
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Re: 1850 Tau Competitive List - new and unique build!

Post#19 » Apr 10 2013 12:58

Well that's good. The nice things about army lists and play style is that they're never the same. :)

The thing you seem to be missing though is that you're presenting your army in a lot of "perfect scenarios".
Adversity is a great marker for assessing your army's strengths.
As I mentioned above, I really don't know what your meta is like, but it's not uncommon to see lists like the above in my area.
- Drop pod sternguard
- Daemons
- Helldrakes (who have a really good chance of destroying your devilfish with D3+1 S7 AP2 ignores cover vs Side armor)
- Barrage

I just wanted to offer some different perspective towards the following circumstances
What if you don't go first?
What if your markerlights are destroyed?
In the case of the bugs, what if Iron Arm is rolled and the Flyrants aren't T6 but rather T7 or worse T9?

It's great that MD have JSJ, I really like it, but now with wounds being allocated from the direction their taken they're not impervious.

Here's another one of my lists (imperial guard) just to keep you thinking...

HQ
Command Squad(75)
1x Lascannon
Chimera(55)
Multi-Laser, Hvy Bolter

TROOPS
Platoon Command (40)
1x Mortar
10xGuardsmen (110)
1x Plasmagun, 1x Autocannon, Commissar
10xGuardsmen (75)
1x Plasmagun, 1x Autocannon,
10xGuardsmen (75)
1x Plasmagun, 1x Autocannon,

10x Guardsmen(55)
1x Flamer
Chimera(55)
Multi-Laser, Hvy Bolter

Platoon Command (40)
1x Mortar
10xGuardsmen (110)
1x Plasmagun, 1x Autocannon, Commissar
10xGuardsmen (75)
1x Plasmagun, 1x Autocannon,
10xGuardsmen (75)
1x Plasmagun, 1x Autocannon,

10x Guardsmen(55)
1x Flamer
Chimera(55)

Special Weapon(50)
3x Flamer
Special Weapon(50)
3x Flamer

FAST
Vendetta (130)

Vendetta (130)

HEAVY
Manticore (160)

Colossus (140)

Manticore (160)

FORTIFICATIONS
Aegis Defense Line (85)
Icarus Lascannon
http://www.ironfistleague.com for games in NOVA/DC!

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Olannon
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Re: 1850 Tau Competitive List - new and unique build!

Post#20 » Apr 10 2013 04:32

The reason I present perfect scenarios is because they are easy to extrapolate from: assuming it's reasonable to reach the enemy with half of a perfect scenario, you can quickly calculate your expected damage output. This is by no means a fair comparison as any and all armies will have something to put back: maybe it's a Devilfish going down or a riptide being unlucky, or a number of other scenarios. Though I haven't played 40k in a while I play fantasy regularly and in this regard they are very similar.

If I don't go first things get a lot harder against shooty lists, however lists that need to move towards me can "just" be responded to. As long as we're playing objective-based games, the most important thing is to not lose too much while gaining position until the later turns in the game. Again, it's much like chess: central control is key. If all markerlights are destroyed without having done zilch first, I'm in trouble. If the Ethereal dies straight away, I'm in trouble. Due to the nature of scenarios it's impossible to give a generic answer, but suffice is to say that this list has certain crucial spots (same as any other list, in my opinion) but I've tried my best to spread it out to minimize the risk of an achilles heel which can easily be dealt with. The thing is that most "threats" this list faces are even bigger threats, in my opinion, to 5th-ed-codex-style Tau lists. I do believe this new codex calls for a different style of play. Is this the be-all, end-all of Tau lists? Probably not, but I'm hoping to find out if it's strong enough to compete with and so far I like what I see.

As for the IG list it doesn't scare me that much to be honest. Maybe it should, but I see like 6 autocannons, some special weapons and templates, as well as the flyers: fairly standard for IG. Am I missing something? Again, it's not a walk in the park (nor is any strong list, otherwise this list would've been all over the place!) but I can clearly see what my priorities are and how I should play the game. If anything, facing this list is a lot more similar to what I originally showed in the diagrams than the previous example with 'nids: getting in and blasting away is the best chance of winning :) If they cram together, a boosted Ion Accelerator doesn't even need markerlights to do damage. If not, some units will be so far out that a T2 engagement is highly likely, at which point it boils down to a mix of priorities, player skill and early-game variance :)

Please keep posting lists, I enjoy reviewing them and thinking about how I'd engage them. I might even use a couple to examplify in the diagrams how early turns could typically look.
A new and unique style of Tau competitive list - click ;)

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ultralemming
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Re: 1850 Tau Competitive List - new and unique build!

Post#21 » Apr 10 2013 06:35

After a new codex list-writing spree and some ATT perusing I also came upon the triple fish space pope brigade and I must say I like the theory behind it. My list is on the forum too - I chose to go more mech with Longstrike, another hammerhead, and piranhas - but I really like the thought process you've outlined here. It falls very similarly to my own, especially with controlling the middle, playing objectives, etc. I'm really interested to see the performance of this type of list compared to the alternatives in the tau codex.

Looking at your diagrams and reading your explanations, your Firewarrior bloc seems to represent your frontline (while being covered by Riptides). While I aimed to use the firewarriors aggressively like you, I also recognized that I didn't want my troops to be my opponent's first target. For this reason I included Turbo-Boosting Piranhas, Infiltrating kroot packs, and either infiltrating Shadowsun+Crisis Suits or a couple Riptides. I envisioned these units with a very simple job: destroy high priority targets and interfere with the opponents forces in whatever way I see fit (blocking movement, harassing exposed units, blowing up landraiders, etc).

My thought process was that the worst match-up for me would be the ones where it is practically impossible to "wipe" the enemy army (or at least the important pieces) due to whatever reasons. In these cases I would want to prevent the enemy from claiming objectives and make sure I could claim some myself. To this end the units above would operate relatively in front of the rest of my army, especially in the early turns, to force my opponent's target priority. In your case I see you plan on using the Riptides to protect devilfish chassis. I think that's a good idea and against armies prepared for AV12, somewhat of a necessity. Don't get me wrong here. I still plan on moving to claim the midfield and annihilate troops if I can preserve my own troops, but I feel these "distraction" units operating at close range provide even more security for your valuable school of fish.

As a side note... I keep getting hung up on this markerlight thing. Just like the old Stealth Marker Teams, I like the idea but end up just going with a cheap blob of 10 Pathfinders and have trouble eliminating other parts of the list in favor of Mark'O or marker drones.

I look forward to comparing our lists and seeing where our relative weaknesses and strengths are! I am eager to playtest this new 'chess-tau.' :P

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Olannon
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Re: 1850 Tau Competitive List - new and unique build!

Post#22 » Apr 11 2013 10:48

Hey ultralemming, thanks for the input :)

While at first the triple-FW with fish might not seem as a huge investment, given that you need a bit of troops after all, it is significant enough to force you to plan around it. While you`ve chosen a rather different approach to mine, I can see the reasoning behind your units perfectly well. I`ll give your list/thread a more thorough look when I get home tonight! Longstrike is definitely a powerful addition, but perhaps because of the Fantasy player in me I still find it hard to include "general" lists with SCs.

As far as controlling the middle is concerned, I think it is a far more important concept than most people seem to understand. As long as the game`s objective focused and the middle is, on average, the shortest route to an average of all the objectives this piece of the board is first class property. Also, the influence of a 36" gun in a corner and a 36" gun in the middle of the board is tremendous.

What lists do you consider "unkillable" and why?

I`ve given much thought to anti-air in particular since yesterday: both the lists and discussions in this thread (courtesy to paidinfull) and in the threads in the upper concourse has opened my eyes with regards to the Skyray: considering my Broadsides are mainly around for anti-air, I think the Skyray is, in a lot of cases, far superior. The thing is that a list like this relies on board control and in particular, early game board control. As such, even though the Skyray`s carrying a limited amount of rockets, it can make more of an impact in a select turn or two which really helps me put the pressure where I want it, fast. To include it, all I have to do is drop a Riptide drone and a Kroot. Getting more Markerlights is probably not a bad idea either, especially considering my current ones are so concentrated (besides, Markerlights with Skyfire is pure awesomesauce!).
A new and unique style of Tau competitive list - click ;)

Lost Ripper
Shas
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Re: 1850 Tau Competitive List - new and unique build!

Post#23 » Apr 11 2013 12:45

I would think that in a head to head Nid list you might have a few problems with such a advancing strategy,
My 1850 Nids List is (from Memory)

Flyrant w/ 2 biomancy powers, Brain leech, and heavy venom cannon w wings
Flyrant w/ 2 biomancy powers, Brain leech, and heavy venom cannon w wings

7 Ygmarl Stealers
7 ygmarl stealers

Doom in a Pod of Love

Tervigon w template, Catalyst and Toxin sacs
Tervigon w template, Catalyst and Toxin sacs
Tervigon w template, Catalyst and Toxin sacs
10 Gaunts
10 Guants
10 Guants


I start with the tyrants behind the tervigons, behind the guants, granting everything useful coversaves,
the Tyrants stick together in most cases,
In such a list you would take out all the guants in 1 turn or dedicate a lot of fire to the tervigons, or attempt to kill the tyrants,
if you are closing to mass fire, then within 2nd turn (3rd on the extreme outside) you would be in assault with guants at best,
Im not sure you have the fire to deal with them in an advancing manner.
Just something to consider,

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Olannon
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Re: 1850 Tau Competitive List - new and unique build!

Post#24 » Apr 11 2013 04:23

Hey Lost Ripper, thanks for the list :)

With the Mark'o, Sky Ray and Iontides I don't reckon that covering MCs with 3+ saves are a big problem: getting markerlight hits is relatively easy regardless. Are you sure this list adds up to 1850 though, it does seem a little small to me?

Again though, two things are important to remember: this is all just theoretical (the definitely most important part) and while that is useful from an analysis point of view, a concept cannot be claimed to be successful unless it has been thoroughly field tested. The other point is that if this list is roughly on par with other Tau lists, it has a big advantage in its objective capabilites - something which is, after all, a big part of most games.

More analysis and real experience to follow during this weekend! I'm hoping to also get a couple of shots up of some sample models, though unfortunately I can't put out the Riptide yet as I intend to enter the competition. I'm really liking how this is starting to feel though, from a modelling and painting perspective I believe the new range gives us a lot of flexibility. Being used to fantasy, there's all sorts of creatures and conversions, not to mention unit fillers, which can break up the monotone feel of an army: now we have more models to do just this with Tau as well!
A new and unique style of Tau competitive list - click ;)

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Olannon
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Re: 1850 Tau Competitive List - new and unique build!

Post#25 » Apr 13 2013 06:28

This list played its first game yesterday and my thoughts can be seen here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=19854

I have no initial list changes that I want to make, although I have a couple of thoughts with regards to how such a list can play. More posts to follow in the upper concourse, but I need some time to collect my thoughts and preferably a game or two more to detail my findings and conclusions :)
A new and unique style of Tau competitive list - click ;)

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Olannon
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Re: 1850 Tau Competitive List - new and unique build!

Post#26 » Apr 14 2013 08:28

I`ve gotten 3 games in rapid succession against the same opponent. Two games were very one sided, the last game you can read about in detail here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=19878&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

Some thoughts with regards to the list:
- Commander is expensive for what he does. Configuration and necessity should be reconsidered.
- S7 is a little short for my liking. Will consider the heavy support arrangement and inclusion of broadside missile drones
- The shielded artillery drone is more of an annoyance than anything else. The huge base of the riptide means that it's hard to get much out of it, position-wise. Also, with stims they`re so tough that having the drone hardly matters, in my opinion.
- Gun Drones and Riptide provide extreme flexibility. I doubt more are needed, but 4 detachable units + 2 Riptides give us something we've never had before.
- Fire Warriors + Ethereal will kill infantry, enough said. I'm also fairly happy with the Devilfish. In principle, I think 2 units would have been sufficient, but 3 are likely necessary due to redundancy. Also, I consider 4 troops a must, meaning I essentially only pay for the Devilfish, if the alternative is having a full unit of fire warriors of course.
- I can consider swapping a unit of Marker Drones for Pathfinders. This is potentially risky, but also yields a higher amount of hits-per-points and I already have a mobile source of markerlights with the commander.
A new and unique style of Tau competitive list - click ;)

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Taipan
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Re: 1850 Tau Competitive List - new and unique build!

Post#27 » Apr 23 2013 04:45

Commander with Plasma Rifle, Fusion Blaster, Shield Generator, Puretide Engram Neurochip, Iridium Armour, Onager Gauntlet, Drone Controller, 2 Marker Drones. [@217points]


You have too much stuff on him, a lot of which is situational. I'd trim him down, and make him support better. The Shas'O is an attachable re-rolls+Ignore Cover dude, the benefits of that combo cannot be overstated on Crisis or Riptides. I'd rebuild him along these lines;

Shas'O w/plasma+fusion, C&C, MSS, Puretide cHIP
(165 points)

Cheaper, still has BS5 guns, but now he's handing out re-rolls and Ignore Cover on top of Puretide benefits. If you bring a squadron of marker drones in FA, I'd give him the drone controller, otherwise don't bother. Shield drones are an option, but I'd leave them off to keep costs down. You can add back in Iridium if you wish, its a good upgrade but it jacks up his price by a lot.

Ethereal [@50points]


Eh. You're going Fire Warrior heavy, so I guess he's a good choice. I still think he's 2VP easily given up.

12 Fire Warriors + Devilfish with Disruption Pod [@203 points]
12 Fire Warriors + Devilfish with Disruption Pod [@203 points]
11 Fire Warriors + Devilfish with Disruption Pod [@194 points]
17 Kroot, 1 Shaper [@116 points]


Not bad. I'd split up the Kroot into two sniper teams, they're too fragile and weak in melee to function up close.

Code: Select all

Riptide XV104 with Ion Accelerator, Twin-linked Fusion Blaster, Stimulant Injector [@220 points]
Riptide XV104 with Ion Accelerator, Twin-linked Fusion Blaster, Stimulant Injector [@220 points]


Good weapon choices. I'd personally take EWO over Stims. Stims is very expensive on Riptides. Honestly, between their 72" range, JSJ, and the 3++ shield they can turn on, you shouldn't need FNP. Interceptor on the other hand is a great ability on a long range AP2 large blast. If you wanna keep stims, he has a free hardpoint, and EWO is dirt-cheap, so take it as an addition.

4 Marker Drones [@56 points]
6 Marker Drones [@84 points]


Good choice. I'd take three units of 4. You have another slot free, and there is no real advantage to taking large units. You have enough Devilfish chassis to hide three units with JSJ and Flat Out abuse.

3 XV88 Broadsides with Twin-linked High-yield Missile Pods, 6 Missile Drones and 3 Target Locks, Ta`lissera [@285 points]


S7 spam isn't really a strong choice, IMO. Target Locks are wasted, they're still on BS3, 40k rewards focusing down units to extinction rather than diluting damage across an enemy force.

I'd give them HRR's, maybe trade the SMS for twin-plasma. Bonding isn't necessary. I'd shell out for Skyfire, its worth it on HRR shots.

3 x Broadsides w/HRR+SMS, VT
(255 points)
Strike hard, strike fast.

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ShadowRec
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Re: 1850 Tau Competitive List - new and unique build!

Post#28 » Apr 23 2013 07:57

Hey just to throw in my 2 cents. I personally wouldn't take 2 riptides. Although they do present a lot in the way of fire power and a massive target for the enemy to focus on, improving the survival of other units, I think 1 riptide and a squad of battle suits would possibly work better. A squad of crisis suits will have better movement with JSJ and can have more of a mix of weaponary making them able to be configured to face multiple types of enemy.

as I say just my 2 cents
"With the speed of startled Kroot hounds..."

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shasocastris
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Re: 1850 Tau Competitive List - new and unique build!

Post#29 » Apr 25 2013 09:23

Olannon wrote:++[HQ]++
Commander with Plasma Rifle, Fusion Blaster, Shield Generator, Puretide Engram Neurochip, Iridium Armour, Onager Gauntlet, Drone Controller, 2 Marker Drones. [@217points]
This fella is extremely hard to kill and can put the hurt on any tough unit in the game. He is very expensive, but I believe the flexibility he brings, especially to a list that relies on being aggressive, is worth it. If I need anti-tank more than anything, he can join a Riptide early on for the Puretide Chip effects.

Having read this list, I really like it. However, I do have a question. Why does the commander not have a target lock? Whether he joines marker drones or the riptide, his weapon loadout doesn't synergize with either. Why not then let him shoot other targets than his squad.

Cheers!

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paidinfull
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Re: 1850 Tau Competitive List - new and unique build!

Post#30 » Apr 25 2013 09:51

ShadowRec wrote:Hey just to throw in my 2 cents. I personally wouldn't take 2 riptides. Although they do present a lot in the way of fire power and a massive target for the enemy to focus on, improving the survival of other units, I think 1 riptide and a squad of battle suits would possibly work better. A squad of crisis suits will have better movement with JSJ and can have more of a mix of weaponary making them able to be configured to face multiple types of enemy.

as I say just my 2 cents

Riptides can also JSJ, but can jump 4D6 if they Nova...
http://www.ironfistleague.com for games in NOVA/DC!

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Vash
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Re: 1850 Tau Competitive List - new and unique build!

Post#31 » Apr 25 2013 10:00

Taipan wrote:
3 XV88 Broadsides with Twin-linked High-yield Missile Pods, 6 Missile Drones and 3 Target Locks, Ta`lissera [@285 points]


S7 spam isn't really a strong choice, IMO. Target Locks are wasted, they're still on BS3, 40k rewards focusing down units to extinction rather than diluting damage across an enemy force.

I'd give them HRR's, maybe trade the SMS for twin-plasma. Bonding isn't necessary. I'd shell out for Skyfire, its worth it on HRR shots.

3 x Broadsides w/HRR+SMS, VT
(255 points)


I beg to differ. I am fielding HYMPs, and they have been my trumph card on most of my games. Sure I don't have target locks, but I do have 6 missile drones.
The HRR is nothing I like, as it doesn't suite my play style. I prefer mass S7 over a single S8 shot. Also the synergy with SMS against infantry really devastating.

For me, the Broadsides have in my 5 games (yes only a few games I know).
- Taken down Helldrake in 2 games
- Lysander and 3 terminators in one turn
- Dreadnaught trying to charge my commander
- 3 combat squads
- 6 Rhinos
- 3 Dreadnaughts (not charging ;) )
- random infantry


It all comes down to personal preference. I see use for both weapons. But 24 S7 shots over 3 S8 shots is pretty much why I go for HYMPs

CariadocThorne
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Re: 1850 Tau Competitive List - new and unique build!

Post#32 » May 26 2013 03:47

I really like this idea, and I intend to use it as a situational alternative to my usual strategy.

I run a fairly similar list:
Ethereal +3x 11 firewarriors in devilfish.
Deathrain-d commander with drone controller, tl, NSJ, PEN, 2xmarkerdrone + 3xdeathrain-d with tl, 3xmarkerdrone, 3xshielddrone.
Riptide with sms, hbc, VT, Stims
Railhead.
Skyray.
8xmarkerdrones.
6xpathfinders.
14xkroot, 2xkrootox.

My usual strategy is a refused flank, infiltrating Kroot forward on one flank with pathfinders scouting forward into cover behind them. 'fishes deploy on opposite flank in cover, go flat out across the board diagonally, deploying firewarriors with Kroot for massed rapidfire to clear the flank, redeploy in fishes later to grab objectives. Suits and tanks hold the centre and concentrate fire on transports and fast units, to prevent my opponent redeploying to counter.

It works well, and has (in various iterations for the last 10 years) despite relying on the close range combat most think Tau can't do.

Your tactic gives me a great alternative which should work with my list really well.

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Innerwolf
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Re: 1850 Tau Competitive List - new and unique build!

Post#33 » May 26 2013 04:47

Vash wrote:It all comes down to personal preference. I see use for both weapons. But 24 S7 shots over 3 S8 shots is pretty much why I go for HYMPs


You mean, 12 S7 shots, right? Each HYMP Broadside fires 4 shots, not 8.

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Vash
Shas'Ui
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Re: 1850 Tau Competitive List - new and unique build!

Post#34 » May 26 2013 04:49

Innerwolf wrote:
Vash wrote:It all comes down to personal preference. I see use for both weapons. But 24 S7 shots over 3 S8 shots is pretty much why I go for HYMPs


You mean, 12 S7 shots, right? Each HYMP Broadside fires 4 shots, not 8.


Ha ha ops. Took into account missile drones that i included in my lists before :)
Very true, 12 S7 shots, but still something I would take over 3 S8 shots.

DeathMarkerSquadron
Shas
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Re: 1850 Tau Competitive List - new and unique build!

Post#35 » May 31 2013 04:11

@Taipan, why are you taking MSS, CNC, and guns? Sure, it gives him versatility, but he can't use both in the same turn, so it seems kind of wasted points to me. Also, i'd definitely recommend the Iridium, it's awesome, but maybe don't bother with a shield generator, you can always give AP2 shots to the markerdrones via LOS.

Anyways, I think the stims on the riptides is a good investment, as they are basically shielding your whole army. Also, the EWO is extremely useful, I would definitely recommend it for the pittance it costs. Also, definitely go for missilesides, they are more effective against almost every target in the game than the HRR. Although personally, I would actually take deathrains in your elite slot instead, just because i think they would synergise better with the mobility of the rest of your army. I do like the idea of your list, have you considered piranhas for anti landraider and a few more screening drones? Could be quite useful

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Rasfig
Shas
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Re: 1850 Tau Competitive List - new and unique build!

Post#36 » Aug 06 2014 05:44

I think you need a little skyfire... you will have big promblem with a necron list with many flyers...
FOR THE GREATER GOOD !!

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