Can A Pure(ish) Battlesuit Army Be Competitive?

Cadres who fought and bled under 6th edition rules.
User avatar
Proiteus
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 123

Re: Can A Pure(ish) Battlesuit Army Be Competitive?

Post#55 » Apr 04 2014 10:25

This is likely to be my final list...

HQ
152 – Commander:
2 Missile Pods, Target Lock, Drone Controller and 2 Marker Drones

ELITE
225 – Riptide:
Ion Accelerator, Fusion Blaster, Early Warning System, Stimulant Injector

250 – Riptide: Ion Accelerator, Fusion Blaster, Earth Caste Pilot Array, Stimulant Injector

TROOPS
129 – 3 Battlesuits
: 2 Burst Cannons each.

159 – 3 Battlesuits: 2 Plasma Rifles Each.

111 – 2 Battlesuits: 2 Fusion Blasters Each, 1 with target lock.

53 – 2 Battlesuit: 2 Fusion Blasters

198 – 3 Battlesuits: 2 Missile Pods and Target Lock each with 2 marker drones.

220 – 3 Battlesuits: 2 with 2 Missile Pods and Target Lock each, Shas'vre with 2 Missile Pods and Drone Controller with 3 marker drones.

Total 1497

Ditched the skyfire on the Riptides as they seem kind of pointless unless I take the super burst cannon and took a earth caste pilot which is likely to be more useful. I was going to invest in a warscaper drone but someone pointed out if I'm that close to the enemy for it to earn it's point, I'm doing it wrong! Decided to separate the fusion blasters into two separate suicide drops and spread the have a 2nd group of marker drones to light up an alternative target.

Overall I feel with those changes it's a solid list, flyers shouldn't be a problem with so many missile pods in the army not to mention it's mobility.

Rawrgyle
Shas
Posts: 67

Re: Can A Pure(ish) Battlesuit Army Be Competitive?

Post#56 » Apr 05 2014 12:52

Jumping in really late here. I think there is a good link here: Specialized vs mixed weapon suits. This has some good disscusion on where I am headed. I wish to merely build in some flexability into your list, as I think too much over specialization can hurt.

What I would suggest is for the the two teams of x3 crisis suits with Burst cannons and plasma be combined.

x3 crisis with 1 BC, 1 plasma each
x3 crisis with 1 BC, 1 plasma each

The reason is that these teams are no longer about one type of infantry but can handle all types of infantry very well. Plasma also helps the killing range of the BCs, and in some cases helps with mixed save mobs (ICs and such attached). It also helps with loses when they do come to spread those plasma guns out some.

On your marker drones. The commander will be joining the unit with 6 marker drones, and brings 2 himself... for a total of 8 drones and 4 suits. This is a huge footprint! your other squad has 3 if I read this correctly? I would move 2 over to end up with 6 and 5... they have larger footprints than you think and can start being a hassle to move about and poistion when you get into it.

The only other comment I have is about the riptides. I don't think you need Stims on both riptides. A stim on a non ECPA riptide helps a bunch for knocking down the risk and keeping it in the game. And stims in general I am not against on riptides they can easily add in 2-3 wounds with very little luck. But the ECPA riptide has a reroll already, and while this doesn't help against incoming fire, does help it do what you want it to!

So I would drop the stims on the ECPA riptide and give it at least a EWO. Now with the amount of str 7 you have in the list + two suicide fusion teams I would also switch out the fusion blasters to plasma (at least on one riptide!). AV13 or less is not going to be a problem.. you can glance the hell out of it at the very least. and you have two teams to counter any AV14 that may pop up or hiding arty.

Don't forget that ripple fire can give those riptides 7 ap2 shots or 4 TwL + a large blast (str 8 = no need to nova charge) and could help cover the moving around of the BC/plasma teams above if your worried about that.

Anyways GL on the build!

User avatar
boomwolf
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 1752

Re: Can A Pure(ish) Battlesuit Army Be Competitive?

Post#57 » Apr 05 2014 05:24

Actually, it might sound odd but I honestly think riptides are better off WITHOUT stims, unless its a super-buffed one. (IE the one WITH the ECPA and possibly the talisman, as he is stronger, and by such more of a target)

After all, the stims are, in effect about, 2 extra wounds for 35 points, while unquestionably a good deal, it increases costs for pure defensive power-meaning that you get less damage output per point spent, yet make the riptide harder to kill per point spent.

So one must wonder-why bother with the riptide? you begin to lose the whole "bullet magnet" job because its becoming too undesirable to shoot the riptides to begin with, as it will take more firepower to take them out, yet there are less "regular" suits on the field (or infantry in case of non-enclaves), meaning it will take even LESS effort to take out your troops and marker support units.

If I was playing AGAINST that army, the "ignore the big guy" strategy would only become more useful once the riptides got stims, clearing out the smaller guy and the marker support, then turning everything left to whittle them down while the clock tics to inevitable doom of the last turn once you got no troops.

CariadocThorne
Shas
Posts: 425

Re: Can A Pure(ish) Battlesuit Army Be Competitive?

Post#58 » Apr 05 2014 06:22

Actually it's 3 extra wounds on average. That's 50% extra. For 7pts less than a crisis suit with dual burst cannon. Not really making a huge difference to the size of your army then.

You are right about making it more tempting to ignore the riptide, but that's where you have to force them to deal with it. If the riptide is just standing in the middle of a gunline supplying ap2 pie plates, sure they can ignore it. If it is pushing upfield, wasting tanks with ripplefired tl fusion blasters, or tarpitting a jetseer council in combat, or has been joined bu O'Vesa and Torchstar, for two cover ignoring pie plates per turn, it's a lot harder to ignore.

User avatar
Innerwolf
Shas
Posts: 199
Contact:

Re: Can A Pure(ish) Battlesuit Army Be Competitive?

Post#59 » Apr 05 2014 08:07

It's also worth mentioning having Feel no Pain helps the Riptide survive when close-range ripplefiring fusion/plasma, as it can't have 3++ at the same time.

User avatar
Nevar
Shas'Vre
Shas'Vre
Posts: 663

Re: Can A Pure(ish) Battlesuit Army Be Competitive?

Post#60 » Apr 05 2014 12:25

Also allow me to point out, that if you trade the Stims on the ECPA Riptide for Velocity Tracer, you then can and should trade 'down' from the Ion Accel to the Heavy Burst Cannon.

In my opinion the ECPA is for the Heavy Burst Cannon not the IA Riptides.

Being able to re-roll ones to avoid overheats pretty much turns the Nova Charged Heavy Burst Cannon into a death machine of rediculous.

Not to mention with marker support the HBC can even deal with AV14. It's got shorter range, but a Skyfire HBC riptide with the ECPA can offer good enough AA, can gun down horde units pretty well, can kill termies and marines with rending, can slaughter light vehicles, and can even knock hull points off of heavy armor if not ruin them.

A lot of people just default to the Ion Accel, but I promise you if you use the HBC and the ECPA together you will be impressed and never regret it. Plus... if you magnetize it, you can always swap back to the IA if you don't totally love it.

As to plasma rifles on riptides... why? I -always- bring fusion blasters. Ripple Fire twin-linked fusion makes for darn good 'just in case' AA threat, as well as also allowing a rippy to double tap armored targets if they used their pie-plate during intercept. Yes plasma can be rippled for x4 shots at rapid fire... but wheee... more plasma. When you have a Burn Eye XV-8 team you are not needing more plasma. Not to mention IA plates and possibly HBC fussilades.

User avatar
CoffeeGrunt
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1122

Re: Can A Pure(ish) Battlesuit Army Be Competitive?

Post#61 » Apr 05 2014 06:28

Actually it's 3 extra wounds on average.


5 Wounds total, 5+FNP save, making it a one in three chance to discount the Wound.

How did you get 3 extra Wounds from 5/3?

I personally run my Riptides with Ion Accelerator/Fusion Blasters, with Early Warning Overrides and Counterfire Defence System. As you can see, they're comparatively cheap and mostly geared towards bullying the opponent. Turn 1, charge Shields if the Nova Reactor holds, then stomp up, be aggressive, threaten tanks.

The CDS works excellently with teasing charges. I've managed to hurt a few Dreadnoughts and the like with a cheeky Fusion Blaster Overwatch. BS2 Twin-Linked is about a 50% chance of a hit. Not bad when it works.

Rawrgyle
Shas
Posts: 67

Re: Can A Pure(ish) Battlesuit Army Be Competitive?

Post#62 » Apr 05 2014 10:17

Nevar wrote:Also allow me to point out, that if you trade the Stims on the ECPA Riptide for Velocity Tracer, you then can and should trade 'down' from the Ion Accel to the Heavy Burst Cannon.

In my opinion the ECPA is for the Heavy Burst Cannon not the IA Riptides.

Being able to re-roll ones to avoid overheats pretty much turns the Nova Charged Heavy Burst Cannon into a death machine of rediculous.

Not to mention with marker support the HBC can even deal with AV14. It's got shorter range, but a Skyfire HBC riptide with the ECPA can offer good enough AA, can gun down horde units pretty well, can kill termies and marines with rending, can slaughter light vehicles, and can even knock hull points off of heavy armor if not ruin them.

A lot of people just default to the Ion Accel, but I promise you if you use the HBC and the ECPA together you will be impressed and never regret it. Plus... if you magnetize it, you can always swap back to the IA if you don't totally love it.


Totally agree.

Nevar wrote:As to plasma rifles on riptides... why? I -always- bring fusion blasters. Ripple Fire twin-linked fusion makes for darn good 'just in case' AA threat, as well as also allowing a rippy to double tap armored targets if they used their pie-plate during intercept. Yes plasma can be rippled for x4 shots at rapid fire... but wheee... more plasma. When you have a Burn Eye XV-8 team you are not needing more plasma. Not to mention IA plates and possibly HBC fussilades.


It really depends on the role you want your riptide to play. And there are a couple of questions that you need to ask here.

How many tanks are you facing?
How much AA do you need?
Do you need to stop drop pods?
What about deepstrikers?
Playing against a horde?
How much heavy infantry are you facing (3+ save or better as AP3 is not as common)?

Now I often build my HBC riptides with VT, EWO, ECPA, and TwL fusion blaster as it gives them an all around role.

But when I run an Iontide, I'm looking at it as an anti infantry platform. Can it be anti tank, yes it could be, but what often will it be shooting at? Probably 3+ armor save or 2+ save units. And in the list above I do not think he will be having problems with tanks. The iontide should be shooting the things that come out of the tanks.

I guess I just rather not have my 200 point unit blowing up rhinos at less than 1/4 of the cost. As for AV14... I guess I just don't actually face much of it other than an odd monolith for fun, or some Russes.

Also with the list above, having another plasma platform MAY take the heat off the other teams.

CariadocThorne
Shas
Posts: 425

Re: Can A Pure(ish) Battlesuit Army Be Competitive?

Post#63 » Apr 06 2014 05:43

CoffeeGrunt wrote:
Actually it's 3 extra wounds on average.


5 Wounds total, 5+FNP save, making it a one in three chance to discount the Wound.

How did you get 3 extra Wounds from 5/3?

For some reason, I was thinking it had 6 wounds when I wrote that. But it would be 5/2 anyway, not 5/3, so 2.5 on average. The point is that it's a 50% improvement in the amount of damage it can take.

User avatar
CoffeeGrunt
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1122

Re: Can A Pure(ish) Battlesuit Army Be Competitive?

Post#64 » Apr 06 2014 07:00

For some reason, I was thinking it had 6 wounds when I wrote that. But it would be 5/2 anyway, not 5/3, so 2.5 on average. The point is that it's a 50% improvement in the amount of damage it can take.


Only because you keep using the wrong maths.

A 5+ save is a 1 in 3 chance of saving in the Wound. One in Three.

5/3, not 5/2.

User avatar
Tem
Shas
Posts: 173

Re: Can A Pure(ish) Battlesuit Army Be Competitive?

Post#65 » Apr 06 2014 07:45

@CoffeeGrunt, look at it this way:

Chance to get through a Riptide's saves with AP3 or worse weapons = 1/6, so only one in 6 wounds should be unsaved on average. If you multiply this by a Riptide's number of wounds, you get 30, which is the average amount of wounds you'd expect to kill a riptide.

However, chance to get through a Riptide with a FNP save and AP3 or worse is 1/6*2/3 which is 2/18 or 1/9. Multiply this by 5 and you get 45, which is the average amount of wounds you'd expect to kill a riptide which has stims. Divide 45 by 6 (which is a normal riptide's chance to save) and you get 7.5. Therefore, a Riptide with Stims has the equivalent of 7.5 wounds, when you are dealing with wounds that allow armour save.

Hopefully that makes things clearer.

CariadocThorne
Shas
Posts: 425

Re: Can A Pure(ish) Battlesuit Army Be Competitive?

Post#66 » Apr 06 2014 12:21

CoffeeGrunt wrote:
For some reason, I was thinking it had 6 wounds when I wrote that. But it would be 5/2 anyway, not 5/3, so 2.5 on average. The point is that it's a 50% improvement in the amount of damage it can take.


Only because you keep using the wrong maths.

A 5+ save is a 1 in 3 chance of saving in the Wound. One in Three.

5/3, not 5/2.


Yes, 1 in 3, meaning 2 in 3 are not saved. Half as many saved wounds as unsaved. Half of 5 is 2.5

Out of 7.5 wounds, 1/3 will be saved (2.5) 2/3 will be unsaved (5).

User avatar
CoffeeGrunt
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1122

Re: Can A Pure(ish) Battlesuit Army Be Competitive?

Post#67 » Apr 06 2014 03:45

Chance to get through a Riptide's saves with AP3 or worse weapons = 1/6, so only one in 6 wounds should be unsaved on average. If you multiply this by a Riptide's number of wounds, you get 30, which is the average amount of wounds you'd expect to kill a riptide.

However, chance to get through a Riptide with a FNP save and AP3 or worse is 1/6*2/3 which is 2/18 or 1/9. Multiply this by 5 and you get 45, which is the average amount of wounds you'd expect to kill a riptide which has stims. Divide 45 by 6 (which is a normal riptide's chance to save) and you get 7.5. Therefore, a Riptide with Stims has the equivalent of 7.5 wounds, when you are dealing with wounds that allow armour save.

Hopefully that makes things clearer.


Assuming that people are firing Bolters at your Riptide, yes, (easy opponents there.)

Negating Armour save with no Nova Shielding. 5++ Invuln would save 1/3 Wounds, meaning it would take around 7-8 Wounds to kill it. With Nova Charged Shielding, this effectively doubles, needing 15 AP1/2 Wounds inflicted.

With an FNP on top of that, it would take around 10 Wounds to kill a 'Tide, 20 if you charged the Shielding.

This is not a 50% improvement.

Yes, 1 in 3, meaning 2 in 3 are not saved. Half as many saved wounds as unsaved. Half of 5 is 2.5

Out of 7.5 wounds, 1/3 will be saved (2.5) 2/3 will be unsaved (5).


You're comparing the wrong variables. When saying that having FNP is better than not, you compare the results with the FNP to ones without.

You don't compare the chance of passing the FNP to the chance of failing it.

A 5+ is a 1/3 chance.

CariadocThorne
Shas
Posts: 425

Re: Can A Pure(ish) Battlesuit Army Be Competitive?

Post#68 » Apr 06 2014 09:51

If I shoot a squad of 10 guardsmen with pulse rifles, I need to cause 10 wounds, as they have no save. Now let's say I shoot more pulse rifles at a second squad, which is identical except for being in 5+ cover.

A 5+ save will save 1/3 of the wounds (on average). 1/3 of 15 is 5, leaving 10 unsaved wounds, which is how many I need.

If a save stops 1/3 of wounds. You have to increase your firepower by 1/2 to get the same result.


Edit: To kill a riptide with no stims takes an average of 180 bs3 pulse shots, (hitting on 4+ is 90 hits, wounding on 5+ is 30 wounds, 2+ save leaves 5 failed saves).
Killing a riptide with stims will take 270 bs3 pulse shots (hitting on 4+ leaves 135 hits, wounding on 5+ leaves 45 wounds, 2+ save leaves 7.5 failed saves, 5+ fnp leaves 5 wounds).

270 = 180 * 1.5

By saving a 1/3 of the wounds, the stims increase the firepower the riptide can take by 50%.

User avatar
CoffeeGrunt
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1122

Re: Can A Pure(ish) Battlesuit Army Be Competitive?

Post#69 » Apr 07 2014 01:48

Okay, that makes sense mathematically, but not tactically. - no-one's going to use Pulse fire on Riptides to bring them down, and if they do you've already won.

When the Armour Save is negated, the benefits drop.

User avatar
Tem
Shas
Posts: 173

Re: Can A Pure(ish) Battlesuit Army Be Competitive?

Post#70 » Apr 07 2014 04:46

Okay, that makes sense mathematically, but not tactically. - no-one's going to use Pulse fire on Riptides to bring them down, and if they do you've already won.

When the Armour Save is negated, the benefits drop.


No it doesn't. If you work out the number of armour ignoring wounds it takes to kill a Riptide:

Case 1:

With a 5++, Riptide should take armour ignoring 7.5 wounds to kill.

Case 2:

With a nova charge for 3++, a Riptide should take 15 armour ignoring wounds to kill.

Case 3:

With a 5++ and FNP, Riptide should take armour ignoring 11.25 wounds to kill. This is a 50% improvement over case 1.

Case 4:

With a nova charge for 3++ and FNP, a Riptide should take 22.5 armour ignoring wounds to kill. This is a 50% improvement over case 2.


In all of the cases above, adding stims to a Riptide allows it to take an extra 50% damage, which has a similar effect to increasing it's number of wounds to 7.5.
Last edited by Tem on Apr 08 2014 04:37, edited 1 time in total.

CariadocThorne
Shas
Posts: 425

Re: Can A Pure(ish) Battlesuit Army Be Competitive?

Post#71 » Apr 07 2014 04:53

CoffeeGrunt wrote:Okay, that makes sense mathematically, but not tactically. - no-one's going to use Pulse fire on Riptides to bring them down, and if they do you've already won.

When the Armour Save is negated, the benefits drop.

Wrong on both counts! :P

Firewarriors have become my main way of dealing with riptides. Usually 33 firewarriors with an ethereal, using markerlights to pour on bs5 pulsefire, + the shots from the devilfishes is enough to drop the riptide, or at least leave it on 1 wound for a hammerhead to finish off. Probably doesn't work for everyone, but it works in a list built around the application if massive amounts of close ranged pulsefire.

It also doesn't make any difference whether the armour is negated.

Killing the riptide with bs3 plasma rifles takes an average of 30 shots (hitting on 4+ leaves 15 hits, wounding on 4+ leaves 7.5 wounds, 5++ leaves 5 unsaved wounds). Adding stims makes it 45 shots (hitting on 4+ leaves 22.5, wounding on 4+ leaves 11.25, 5++ leaves 7.5, 5+ stims leave 5).


Any time you add a 5+ save to a unit which didn't have one before (or an additional save in the case of fnp), you add an additional 1/3 chance of surviving each wound, which increases the average amount of damage you can take by 50%.

A 6+ save is a 20% increase, 4+ is 100% increase (doubles the amount of firepower required to wipe the unit) 3+ is 200%, 2+ is 500%.

Take 3+ for example, 30 shots from vespid stingwings will kill an average of 10 marines (hitting on 4+ leaves 15, wounding on 3+ leaves 10, no save). Firewarriors are the same (bs3 and s5) except that the marines get a 3+ save so if we increase 30 shots by 200%, it should take 90 firewarrior shots.

90 shots, hitting on 4+ leaves 45, wounding on 3+ leaves 30, 3+ save leaves 10 dead marines.

Edit: this is going way off topic. Taking stims on a riptide depends on it's role and use. If you can make it enough of a threat to force your opponent into dealing with it, stims are a good way to let the riptide soak up even more firepower. If your plan really hinges around your riptide, then stims will help keep it alive (but a different plan would be better). Adding stims make the riptide a less attractive target, so if you want it to soak up fire, either don't take stims, or do, but make it too dangerous to ignore by the way you use it.
Last edited by CariadocThorne on Apr 07 2014 05:19, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Proiteus
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 123

Re: Can A Pure(ish) Battlesuit Army Be Competitive?

Post#72 » Apr 07 2014 05:00

With all these calculations I'm starting to think that members of the Adeptus Mechanicus have hijacked my thread! :smile:

Return to “Archival Datacore - 6th Edition”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest