[Escalation Campaign] F-XV HALO Cadre / Ke'lshan Rangers

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[Escalation Campaign] F-XV HALO Cadre / Ke'lshan Rangers

Post#1 » Dec 20 2013 01:42

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Crusade of Fire:
Necron player: Avatar - TBD
Tau player: Avatar - TBD (Was Riptide last I knew)

Force of Ruin:
Chaos (demons): Avatar - Bloodthirster or Great unclean one
Tau (vay) Ke'lshan: Avatar - XV107
Nids player: Avatar - TBD


P1 T1:
Ke'lshan Forces deployed:
HQ - Ethereal
T - 6 FW
T - 6 FW
E - XV8 Dual flamers
F - 4 Pathfinders
H - XV107
Last edited by Vay on Feb 14 2014 02:49, edited 13 times in total.
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Re: [Escalation Campaign] Ke'lshan Rangers - Light Infantry

Post#2 » Dec 24 2013 09:09

Those are some brutal FOC requirements - filling out a minimum FOC like that at 500 points would be an interesting challenge.

I'm curious, though... with minimum requirements in non-Troop FOC categories even at low point values, how is this actually meant to place the emphasis once again on Troops? It seems, on paper, to do the opposite. I can see it doing what you mean for it to do at higher point levels, but not at 500. Maybe something like 1-2 HQ, 3+ Troops, no minimum on other categories at 500 points?

It seems like a cool idea, though, and a fun list to play.

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Re: [Escalation Campaign] Ke'lshan Rangers - Light Infantry

Post#3 » Dec 25 2013 10:34

I would say this won't work.


Some armies CANT even fill that many slots even while using sub-optimal choices.
Others are fored into taking very spesific and very bad things.


Forcing someone to use so much FOC is harsh, and outright turns many units into non-options because they cost too much and you cannot fill the FOC any more.

Not all armies is like tau that can have minimalist cheap units scattered among muliple FOC slots, some armies NEED large teams or big units to function.

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Re: [Escalation Campaign] Ke'lshan Rangers - Light Infantry

Post#4 » Dec 26 2013 12:42

We were attempting to adjust for a constant power issue we were running into with our campaigns. This is the 5th campaign we have started, the 4th was ended early because our side won 8 out of 8 matches. (and not close games, we are talking heavy one sided wins) (My leading theory on this was the combos our side could pull off)

As far as army building, yes you get cornered into limited options and some things are very hard or impossible to get. Most things will not appear before 2000 points.
(There are also special missions, which have special FOCs. These are often very "creative", but brings in a wide variety of options for players)

The FOC slots are also conceptually interchangeable.
IE the FOC increase for 1000 can be Allie, formations, or what not.

The over all design was to make the army's less WAC and more difficult to power combo.

If you had another idea we would be game for it.
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Re: [Escalation Campaign] Ke'lshan Rangers - Light Infantry

Post#5 » Dec 27 2013 04:49

Talked again with the whole group and I re-expressed the same concerns discussed, but as a whole we are game for trying this. Across the board people are excited to try more of their units, and it sounds like a lot of armies are going a lot of small forces and one big guy.

I am also switching our planetary empires type mapping for a shared map concept. The battle will match the progression of the story and less the front line of the forces. This is to take out the Planetary empire bonuses that make the winners stronger and the losers weaker.

I am interested in any "wonderful" ideas other campaigners have out there.
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Re: [Escalation Campaign] Ke'lshan Rangers - Light Infantry

Post#6 » Dec 27 2013 05:41

IMO, the list which you call "My 500" points out the flaw. You have not quite the smallest possible points invested in all FOC options except for Heavy where you spend about half your total points on one big stompy which most opponents will find difficult to deal with at any points level and likely impossible at 500. While I realize the 107 will usually be non-scoring it would still be a holy terror to face at 500 points. (BTW, I assume the 4 man stealth team you list is actually a 4 man pathfinder team). I would suggest instead of minimum slots, you go with minimum/maximum points, maximum slots.

@ 500 points Order of Battle (OB)
HQ: Min 1 FOC, Max 10% of OB -OR- Max 1 FOC
Elite: Max 20% OB, Max 2 FOC
Troops: Min 30% OB, Min 2 FOC, no Max OB, dedicated transports don't count
Fast + Any Dedicated Transports: Max 30% OB
Heavy: Max 20% OB, Max 1 FOC
Heavy + Elite: Max 30% OB, Max 2 FOC
Elite + Fast + Heavy: Max 40% OB, Max 4 FOC

Obvoiusly some tweaking would be necessary and the FOC restrictions would relax at higher points levels while the OB restrictions would remain mostly consistent. This would promote more troops centric forces with reasonable amounts of support.

Edit: Or simplify it and mandate each player spends at least 40% in troops and no more than 20% in any other category.
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Re: [Escalation Campaign] Ke'lshan Rangers - Light Infantry

Post#7 » Dec 28 2013 07:48

The other escalation variant for the list(6th list I have built) was to take a XV104 and snipers instead of 107 and the xv8. The min/maxing is always there, the increased foc would just make it harder to sync. The other aspect is that it forces you take take at least 6 units.
(From talking to most of the other players, many are also going tight on most units and super spending on 1)
(Which when I think about it is a lot like how it is now normally, but the increased FOC makes it vastly more inefficient for everyone to do that)
(The big thing I am worried about with this being our first go at escalation is TAC vs rock/paper/scissor, and if one army has the rock and every one else has paper)

I like the idea of the 40/20 split. (we tried something like it before) The only quick flaw would be Nids with the MC/spawner in the troop slots (there are others, the big thing is that not all troop slots are equal). That and what people get out of their troop slots differs greatly. (special weapons, combos, support craft)
This gets us more motivated to adjust points, FOC, or make it a special mission. Many of the other things just punished or rewarded unevenly. (We also like the KISS method of rules/adjustments for campaigns)

In a lot of ways the idea of what we wanted is not being captured (this is a continuing evolution of our META). I think based on just discussion and list generations we could have played 500 point escalation and been fine. We were just looking for a way to tone down everyone's armies and not just some armies.

(I think these days more then ever I wonder as to the nature of this game and how balanced it is. The problem I see now is that even if it is balanced, there are so many options out there now that what a person can bring is hard to adapt too for all players. Some of our guys have well loved lists that grow slowly, but we have changed so fast that too them the game has become 2nd round wipes until they adapt. While others seem to be thriving, but they have the money and time to adapt. Maybe this was always kind of the case, but these days it is amplified by the production speed of GW?)
---
(The other side of this argument is that when the best player I know there plays vs me, the game is down to the wire crazy. So skill / army / budget are all factors. Can a campaign adjustment fix that META issue?)
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Re: [Escalation Campaign] Ke'lshan Rangers - Light Infantry

Post#8 » Dec 28 2013 11:35

Vay wrote:I think this will make for a vastly different game of 40K where the Troops are honestly the back bone again.


I agree, not all troops are equal. Some Chaos and Eldar lists, FSE, etc. all bring very capable troops but these are significantly more expensive. Back in 3rd edition, the local Biel Tan (all aspects are Troops) player would be the first to call cheese when your list did not use at least 2 max troops squads with Veteran Sgt. upgrades and at least 50% troops. Pretty easy to say when all your troops are elites and all your Vet Sgts bring a significant advantage beyond simple wargear access.
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Re: [Escalation Campaign] Ke'lshan Rangers - Light Infantry

Post#9 » Dec 29 2013 01:26

I am terminating the idea with our group if I can, I am not the person fighting for it to stay.
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Re: [Escalation Campaign] Ke'lshan Rangers - Light Infantry

Post#10 » Dec 29 2013 02:03

<snip>
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Re: [Escalation Campaign] Ke'lshan Rangers - Light Infantry

Post#11 » Dec 29 2013 11:55

I was also agreeing with you. I don't know how to fix the issue, and I agree the FOC will not do it. I am out of ideas though, maybe there is no "fix". I am looking into the other escalation posts for ideas to add.

- Editing older post
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Re: [Escalation Campaign] Ke'lshan Rangers - Light Infantry

Post#12 » Dec 29 2013 04:20

So update: we are going to bring 500 (Max FOC, cause every one still wants too{even in the face of certain doom}) and 500 normal. We figure we can get 3+ games in per game day and figure out what feels right.

I really like the small but meaningful changes to the escalation forces, but I am not sure which mechanic to use yet.
1) No change, once picked forces are set
2) Change when ever
3) Change, but limited. Might even be limited to turns.
(Leaning towards 3, with some other ideas I am reading about)

We are also using 5th EXP system. Its easy and light on book keeping. If the unit is dropped from the army, veteran status is lost.

Was also looking at linked boards, 6X4 next to a 6X4, and both sides can interact with the other. The objectives are set to you side, but the forces could work together.

Planetary empires mapping is probably back on, the other idea I was working has failed and with so many other things in flux I am going to put it back in place.
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Re: [Escalation Campaign] Ke'lshan Rangers - Light Infantry

Post#13 » Dec 30 2013 03:59

Also looking at adding a rule:

Victory Through Adaptation: If you have included a never used before unit (in the game) you gain +1 VP for that battle. This effect does not stack.

(The goal would be to have a campaign reason for armies to change.)
This does bring up a possible Troops version.

Dogs of War: +1 VP at 4 Troops slots filled, +2 VP at 6 slots filled.

Might function better then FOC manipulation.

This would have a max troop slotted army that adjusts units starting most battles with 3 VP.

Thoughts?
Balance issues?
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Re: [Escalation Campaign] Ke'lshan Rangers - Light Infantry

Post#14 » Dec 30 2013 06:29

Interesting concept.

For Victory Through Adaptation are you meaning if at the 4th round of the campaign you bring in a Vespid unit for the first time you get free VP? Or would it mean if you were the first person to use Vespid you'd get the VP?

As for Dogs of War, there could be balance issues but it would need some playtesting to determine if it's a problem. Tau for example can get 6 troops for 324 points. At 500 the Tau player would have difficulty fielding support units while at 2000 it's a pretty easy do. Thousand Sons, Iyanden, Biel Tan, Dark Eldar Raider swarm, Dark Angels, and probably a few others would be quite happy to be rewarded for bringing lots of troops. I would say the VP would a boon for anyone with either excessively cheap or capable troops while a number of forces might have difficulty fielding that many troops at some force levels while remaining competitive. I would say if it promotes troop usage it is a good thing. Best case scenario would be most of your group takes advantage of the VP meaning most battles actually be a low VP swing.
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Re: [Escalation Campaign] Ke'lshan Rangers - Light Infantry

Post#15 » Dec 30 2013 08:53

For Victory Through Adaptation are you meaning if at the 4th round of the campaign you bring in a Vespid unit for the first time you get free VP? Or would it mean if you were the first person to use Vespid you'd get the VP?

It would be for the first time you fielded that unit.

Your probably right on the Dogs of War. Honestly, a lot of this discussion has pointed out how wrong the idea is that elite/troop/fast/heavy are different. Codex, unit type, weapons, and synergy make any of these areas just as lethal as others if mixed correctly. Very interesting indeed. Not what I thought would be the case when this dialog got started.

Well my brain and interest in being "creative" is slightly burned out. Was talking with the group and another round of Crusade of Fire might be in order. Its printed, we have done it before, and maybe we can just patch what was missing the last go.

Teams are being fixed as well, pairing power levels and collections better might help enough. We shall see, Thursday is coming up way too fast.

Thank you timb6ea for your great dialog in this, it is very helpful.
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Re: [Escalation Campaign] Ke'lshan Rangers - Light Infantry

Post#16 » Jan 01 2014 09:42

Image

Might be hard to see. Use link to get too larger image.

There have been some penned changes but this is what we are looking at. This is paired with Crusade of Fire.
- 1 Stratagem per 500 also added to city fight
- team mates count as friendly and allies of convenience (to prevent warp storm or necron lighting issue type things)
- No EXP loss if forced to not have unit by mission or point drop
- < or = 3 wound player models get IC, >3 get Character
- 0 Flag players can attack any where on the last planet they had flags on

Also of note, I got FOC limiting stopped. Every player in our group told me they were sad to not try it. I also think every player had a power list in mind. Very interesting.

So I need to write a new list, going to go Farsight, and I need to think of an Allied detachment.
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Re: [Escalation Campaign] Ke'lshan Rangers - Light Infantry

Post#17 » Jan 02 2014 01:50

Vay wrote:Every player in our group told me they were sad to not try it. I also think every player had a power list in mind. Very interesting.
In that case I'm sorry I discouraged it, first rule is to have fun. To me the restrictions did not seem to meet the goals you were looking for, which is not to say they are bad but you seemed to want to control power issues.

Vay wrote:- < or = 3 wound player models get IC, >3 get Character
So your in-game "player" is only an IC if he has less than or equal to 3 wounds, otherwise only a character? Can the Character join units? I assume the "player" is essentially a customized HQ choice?
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Re: [Escalation Campaign] Ke'lshan Rangers - Light Infantry

Post#18 » Jan 02 2014 09:18

In that case I'm sorry I discouraged it

Do not be, it was a horrible idea. Our players are just very open minded (Lol, the chaos player had a list at 500 with a bloodthirster. All of the limited FOC evolution armies went light on 90% of the army and heavy points on one big dude.), and the desire to find a fix for the campaign was very high. I was very interested in your divergent opinion. It was exactly the thoughts and ideas I needed to solidify my opinion on the topic before we used game time to do it. Thank you.

The "player" is a model chosen from your primary army. It can be any slot, IC lets weaker "player models" join units and be more survivable, C lets the bigger units be singled out in close combat (IC was deemed too powerful above 3 Wounds)(Warriors in Nids was used as the top "player model" we wanted with IC), and the reason it was added was in place of Eternal warrior as a way to boost wanting to take a not huge dude as your avatar.
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