Fast Attack choosing

Cadres who fought and bled under 6th edition rules.
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Chris
Shas'La
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Re: Fast Attack choosing

Post#19 » Apr 27 2014 03:02

Razorshark and even the Sunshark aren't that good. Probably a problem from nearly all flyers (except the Helldrake, Necroms or Vendettas).

In a competitive list, is no room for our flyers.

But in less competitive games, those flyers can perform really good I think. Unfortunately I haven't played them yet, but tried the Remoras a few times.

For 90 pts. one drone is really expensive, and you need at least 3 of them in my opinion.

They where always a pain for my opponent, especially 6 seekers fired with ignore cover.

Markerlights are necessary for the Razorshark, but less for the Sunshark. Also the Drones from the Sunshark are great. I think the Sunshark is a little bit better.

Anyway I have a Razorshark at home (Sunshark will be coming someday) because I like the idea if him. Pathfinders are marking a target and the flying Gunship is firing a hail of ion fire downing the foes.

Additionally he's great in dogfights. And in less competitive games, he will find targets he can shoot at.

I think our flyers aren't an autoinclud, but are far from useless (like Vespids IMHO). A weak choice maybe, but not the weakest.

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Kael'yn
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Re: Fast Attack choosing

Post#20 » Apr 27 2014 04:14

@boomwolf
Razorshark without the S8 blast will be rated for me as "Poor" as Sunshark for the reasons you said about availability of S7AP4.
Riptide/Ionhead wanting to use its S8 blast need to move carefully, get rid of LOS blocking objects to remove cover , ... Why AP2/AP3 if the target have 5+/4+ cover with the need of 2 ML to remove cover.
Barracuda need a good angle too (and usually can make one shot only before loosing the target)
The Razorshark can fire 2, maybe 3, time with the S8 blast (but weak AP4 only) on the same target even if it has moved thanks to its turret weapons, and can be placed to pass over cover granted by ruins. It can also have a wider range of targets available (cover from the sky is not as frequent as cover from the ground)
For me it takes one role the Artillery have in Astra Militarum army : make out-of-LOS backfield dangerous.

The vehicles targets I mentioned have for most of them no turrets or need to move, so taking a wall as cover is not practical. And using people as cover for rear will slow them if they need to move fast.
A "walled" vehicle with a turret is easier to avoid : you then have pinned down a threat.
You can also shot at the side or top armor, often AV12, so with 6 S7AP4 shots (with MP), 3 hitting, 1.5 glancing / 0.75 penetrating it remains useful.

The durability of all our classic flyers is low. Razorshark is like the Sunshark. Better than Barracuda. The "Good" rating I give it instead of "Situational" is because I feel it is designed to hit loud and fast even if it will not survive all the game (it is not a transport) and is less expensive than Sunshark (which need to survive to fully use it's NML and bomb ability).

A wise commander do not throw a paperplane without other threats to manage for the enemy. Like chess, you can defeat an enemy if you restraint its moves to dangerous ones.

@Chris
Yeah, Tau flyers points are more efficiently expensed elsewhere in competitive lists.
I do not overviewed Remora nor Barracuda, XV9, ... Because the OP seems to not have FW available.
The 6x seekers on Remora are cheaper on Piranhas (supported by ML) or Skyray (have its own ML with better BS). But other features makes them interesting (NML, LBBC, Shrouded and Deepstrike), but not competitive IMHO.

Vespid are not useless. They are simply not as versatile as our other units, with one good weapon on a dedicated gunner. To field them is to have one tactic to use for them (fast hunt of bike/power armor/Eldar specialists small teams) and so can be countered easily by a good opponent. That's why the "Situational" rating I gave.

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boomwolf
Shas'La
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Re: Fast Attack choosing

Post#21 » Apr 27 2014 05:50

Vespid are far from bad, or even situational.
In fact they are divine.

In the right game.

While not much in 40k, they are amazing in cities of death or zone mortalis.

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Kael'yn
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Re: Fast Attack choosing

Post#22 » Apr 27 2014 06:03

Or Kill Team (old, and free, version, since new rules make LD test more harsh for them).

Those game modes are overally the way to use new toys that are viewed as "average" in classic games, like Stealth that are also greatly promoted in KT/CoD compared to standard 40k

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TheCoolShark900
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Re: Fast Attack choosing

Post#23 » Apr 27 2014 11:03



Thankyou for your answers

I will not use pathfinders or Vespid as they do not go in my theme

Also this is deciding whether a Sunshark or a Razorshark or even a third unit of 5 pirahnas should be used

:P
Big Guns Never Tire???
"Longstrike, wake up"

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AngryAlbatross
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Re: Fast Attack choosing

Post#24 » Apr 28 2014 09:02

I would argue that if you are already taking 2 big units of piranhas, you should take pathfinders, or a marker drone squadron attached to a commander. You can play without markerlights, but they really compliment any army build, and can be great with piranhas. One main weakness of piranhas is long range weaponry, but if you add some seeker missiles to them they can be a very powerful alpha strike unit. Combined with at least 4 marker hits a piranha squad could unleash 10 seekers on the first turn (which is potentially enough to wipe a wraithknight or a squadron of enemy vehicles). If you don't get first turn keep the marker unit and piranhas in reserve then do a 2nd turn beta strike.

Also pathfinders are great outflanking with a recon drone, putting one squad of them in a corner will let you outflank from the enemy's edge or you can use them to deep strike some crisis teams 12" from the edge without scatter.

Now I want some piranhas! Haha

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TheCoolShark900
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Re: Fast Attack choosing

Post#25 » Apr 28 2014 09:32

Thankyou I completely forgot about drone teams do you think one max size unit of marker drones would be good?
Big Guns Never Tire???
"Longstrike, wake up"

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AngryAlbatross
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Re: Fast Attack choosing

Post#26 » Apr 28 2014 10:29

Marker drones really shine when you attach a commander to them. But by themselves many think they are sub-par.

There are several pros and cons when compared to pathfinders.
Drones vs Paths
Pros.
-more maneuverable due to relentless and jsj or "jump shoot jump" referring to their jet pack move in the assault phase
-more survivable due to 4+ armor, toughness 4 and stated maneuverability
Cons
-worse ballistic skill, unattached to a commander you only will hit with 2 markers on average for every 6 drones vs 3 markers for every 6 pathfinders
-more expensive (by only 1 point!)
-no options (meaning they can't do multiple things, they can only mark targets. Whereas pathfinders can shoot pretty well up close and outflank and have more roles they can fill)

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ccrraazzyyman
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Re: Fast Attack choosing

Post#27 » Apr 28 2014 12:18

AngryAlbatross wrote:-more expensive (by only 1 point!)


That was a valid assessment of the drones, except for that part. Drones taken as part of the drone squadron are 3 more points than a pathfinder, not 1.

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TheCoolShark900
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Re: Fast Attack choosing

Post#28 » Apr 29 2014 09:38

As said pathfinders do not fit the theme

So what should be taken?

5 Pirahnas 12 Marker Drones

Vote now! :D :biggrin: :) :smile: :P :eek: :fear:
Big Guns Never Tire???
"Longstrike, wake up"

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boomwolf
Shas'La
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Re: Fast Attack choosing

Post#29 » Apr 29 2014 10:39

Impossible to say without seeing the rest of your list.

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AngryAlbatross
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Re: Fast Attack choosing

Post#30 » Apr 29 2014 10:48

ccrraazzyyman wrote:
AngryAlbatross wrote:-more expensive (by only 1 point!)


That was a valid assessment of the drones, except for that part. Drones taken as part of the drone squadron are 3 more points than a pathfinder, not 1.


Good catch! I was thinking of battle suit drones for some reason

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TsarHagrid
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Re: Fast Attack choosing

Post#31 » Apr 29 2014 06:53

I vote the 12 Marker Drones - given that I feel the Markerlights are important. I would like to know what your HQ choices as I believe you'll need a drone buff commander. Personally, my rule of thumb is to take at LEAST two squads that tote markerlights in your list...12 drone m/light squad is a little overkill/wasteful/unsafe IMO

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Nevar
Shas'Vre
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Re: Fast Attack choosing

Post#32 » Apr 29 2014 08:16

I vote a TLBC XV-9 team.

Or marker drones, marker drones help a lot.

I am not sure how this thread has survived this long though, while there is substance in other member's comments, this thread is not really supplying much in the way of insight to the community as a whole. Perhaps we should reconsider the layout and discussion as an overall debate of Fast Attack options as a whole? Maybe compile a Tactica or something more ATT-like?

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Kael'yn
Fio'Ui
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Posts: 1088

Re: Fast Attack choosing

Post#33 » Apr 30 2014 04:46

Nevar wrote:I am not sure how this thread has survived this long though, while there is substance in other member's comments, this thread is not really supplying much in the way of insight to the community as a whole. Perhaps we should reconsider the layout and discussion as an overall debate of Fast Attack options as a whole? Maybe compile a Tactica or something more ATT-like?


Yeah, it seems, since with the invalidation of the old Tactica on ATT leave few help to newcomer without digging into multiple posts (another HQ-analysis thread has started too).
At this time I think only 1d4chan has the only full review and analysis of our dex, but with limited explanations and straightforward tactics.

Intelligence is the way to go.
Maybe the mods can open temporary topics for each Tau unit in a "Tactica Research" subforum with the call to everyone here to link as replies interesting data about using these units (with the limit to not discuss these data on the temporary topic but continue on the original).
With this method, is will be easier for someone to write a complete review and tactics from the data collected (specially if you follow a standard pattren).
I think we have already plenty of data for the major units here (Vespids and Aun'va are poorer than riptide on this but I am sure you can found something on them)

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