Hobby Resource [Tau Squad Marking Scheme] - Updated

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Kles'ro
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Re: Tau Squad Marking Scheme - Updated

Post#19 » Aug 13 2011 08:01

...wow. That is an amazing piece of work. Well done. The only comment I have is that, per the codex, fire warrior team leaders are designated by the Sept color being applied to the helmet (antenna) and shoulder pad. However, team leaders might be different from Shas'ui, so it could be the way you show. If it is, what would be the designation for team 2 'ui? Also, what would happen as you get up to 6 Firewarrior teams (there is precedent, because there are cited cadres in IA3 with 72 Shas'la Firewarriors). As I said, it can get rather complicated fairly quickly.

Also, where did you pull the ideas for the design of the other castes/races from?
Know the enemy and yourself, and fear not 1000 battles

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Mek'an'ik
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Re: Tau Squad Marking Scheme - Updated

Post#20 » Aug 13 2011 09:38

Mabrothrax wrote:Now that is excellent work! I would advocate creating two pdfs for those who print there own transfers - one black and one white (black outlines).

:biggrin:


Kles'ro wrote:...wow. That is an amazing piece of work. Well done. The only comment I have is that, per the codex, fire warrior team leaders are designated by the Sept color being applied to the helmet (antenna) and shoulder pad. However, team leaders might be different from Shas'ui, so it could be the way you show. If it is, what would be the designation for team 2 'ui? Also, what would happen as you get up to 6 Firewarrior teams (there is precedent, because there are cited cadres in IA3 with 72 Shas'la Firewarriors). As I said, it can get rather complicated fairly quickly.

Also, where did you pull the ideas for the design of the other castes/races from?


Cheers!!

I will look into making PDFs of them... will need to do some size testing for models... and investigate how to make the damn things!


Kles'ro:
I realise that, yes they are designated by the colouring on their helmets... but I don't view it as being an "either one or the other" situation. I would think the Sept colour as you say, but also the markings. Part of the thinking is that the markings constitute the individuals assignment. This assignment/marking could be embroidered onto their rest cloths or even their "civies" - to show their place in the greater good at all times... and in those other situations the Tau wouldnt necesarily have a Helmet on!

The additional squads follow in the pattern above, I've included six symbols, with the idea then being that they start to repeat after that--- I suppose there should be 8 symbols really, since they have a base 8 counting system... but I digres.

The basis then is, you have your caste symbol, your squad/assignment symbol and your rank. By jamming the appropriate ones together you get the particular squads emblem.

The tanks then is similar.. there is a chasis symbol and a usage symbol, the combination denotes its function.

I "tried" to have the caste/race symbols in someway representative... but Im not a graphic designer, nor am I particularly imaginative... The fire caste is a flame, the water is fluid filling a body, air is a balloon, earth a rock, ethereal is infinity (but thats me trying to justify turning things upside down and sticking bits together...)

Humans is an upside down kneeling man, Kroot a fang, Vespid I suppose is a wing... that is straight from the art work.

All of it is based on what exists in pictures in Codicies/White Dwarf articles/Forgeworld, etc.

Mek'an'ik
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Kles'ro
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Re: Tau Squad Marking Scheme - Updated

Post#21 » Aug 13 2011 09:44

As ever I am impressed by your design work. Don't sell yourself short. This is a great piece of work.
Know the enemy and yourself, and fear not 1000 battles

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taro
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Re: Tau Squad Marking Scheme - Updated

Post#22 » Aug 13 2011 10:46

I love this! It's really thorough, and would look really cool if it was used across an entire army! (Or at least it looks great on my imaginary army...)

If I may make a suggestion though, I think the number system could use some refining.
Right now, it works up to six, but beyond that, won't scale well to larger numbers. What if someone wanted to have "Firewarrior Team 189"? It'd be great if it was possible to do any number you wanted.

From a logical, tau-engineer sort of standpoint, the numbers seem to count funny.
Two is a Bar.
Three is the same bar cut in half. A Half, if you will.
But take a Bar (2) and a Half (3), and that equals 4? Should that not be 5? 2+3=5?

By just using Bars and Halfs, we can easily show all the numbers up to .
1 = (None)
2 = Bar
3 = Half
4 = Bar Bar
5 = Half Bar
6 = Half Half

As already mentioned, Tau do use a base 8 number system, so we need at least 7 and 8 before we've covered everything.

Following this system, the number eight could be Half Half Bar. That's getting a little out of hand, and if we kept that up, Firewarrior Team 16 would have to look like Half Half Half Half Bar Bar. That will simply not do.
I think that the Target symbol you have for six right now looks like it's one of those important symbols, so it could definitely be used as the very important number eight. However, in my humble opinion, it looks really hard to paint. The others aren't all that easy to paint, but the current six would drive me crazy pretty quick by itself. If we could get an easier symbol for 8, that'd be great.
One possibility is the Thirds symbol on Vespid Team Three.*

There's also the problem of seven. Because of the fact that Team One has no number in it, there's no symbol to add to 6 to make it seven. Half Half ??? So we could either add a symbol for 1, or add a symbol for 7.

Opinions?

My goodness that went longer than I thought it would.

Cheers!

* Why are Vespid Teams and Piranha Teams following a different number system?

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Kles'ro
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Re: Tau Squad Marking Scheme - Updated

Post#23 » Aug 13 2011 11:33

Remember that the "warpaint" rank system is used primarily on a cadre level. The cadres listed in IA3 only reached a maximum of around 120 in number, with smaller numbers being common (one was even only 40 or so personnel). It says that roughly 80 to 100 cadres participated, meaning about 8-9 thousand troops per the book. Therefore, you would never getan inordinate number of squads of the same type.

It also does show a picture that says the markings on the helmet denote the individual is a Shas'ui, though it looks nothing like what we have. More then likely each cadre has it's own personal system, or the authors/ drawers don't bother making sure the paint is the same.


Edit: I just thought of another possibility for the warpaint system. What if each rank had a fixed, simple marking. Instead of building off the previous one, it could simply be an entirely different symbol (as an entirely different rank). Other than that one mark, each individual La'rua is given leave to determine the marking for their own team. Instead of having "Firewarrior Shas'la of Team 1, 2, 3, etc", it would simply have the rank stripe and the stripes of La'rua Kais (Kais being the name I arbitrarily chose for the team leader, since they are shown to name teams and cadres by that ie. IA3 referencing Contingent El'Shi'eldi, after the commander in charge). Instead of a complex system of teams 1, 2 ,3 4, 5, and 6, you simply see the rank of the individual and the stripes of the La'rua. Each cadre is small enough that you would probably know the stripes of every La'rua in your cadre, and that's all the differentiation you need. It would simplify the system a great deal, along with explaining why they never seem to correlate picture to picture.
Know the enemy and yourself, and fear not 1000 battles

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R'alai
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Re: Tau Squad Marking Scheme - Updated

Post#24 » Aug 13 2011 11:58

I also notest that the pihrana has no option for fusion blaster on the markings

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Mek'an'ik
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Re: Tau Squad Marking Scheme - Updated

Post#25 » Aug 13 2011 02:39

R'alai:

Added, cheers!

Kles'ro:
Yes you're right about the cadre level, and this is why none of the icons include sept or cadre. Its quite possible that each cadre has its own system, or each sept has its own system... or there could very easily be no system... it could be that the team leader picks his symbol and all the members fall under that... its the very lack of clarity that led me to attempt all of this.

I like you're other possibility. However to enact it here it would mean there would be 40 rank symbols (for all the gaps there) plus a unique symbol for each unit in the cadre... which could be another 20-30 icons once youve broken it down to all thr battle suit(squads), one for each unit.

This one has a base symbol, the lowest rank of a caste. It is then modified in one direction by rank, and another by unit. Where unit includes the unit number... more complicated maybe... but (while some of these are complicated to paint) they are simple blocks and their are a finite number of shapes and then are repeated.

Taro:
Points noted and all changed... however..

The numbering system that was there, following your logic, would have been a base 4 system.
0 = (.) nothing there at all, would need to be represented by an unseen icon
1 = (:)icon that is superceeded by unit icon, exists but unseen, would need an icon for higher numbers
2 = (|)bar
3 = (¦)halfs

so it would be 0= . 1= : 2=| 3=¦ 4=.. 5= .: 6= .| 7= .¦ 8= :.

So based on that, I did throw together a system of dash numbers. The Tau do have a numbering system already, so this could only be explained by the Earth caste, or other, devised this unified iconography to be used pictographically.. an evolved warpaint system.

-Like Tau heiroglyphs... A lot like Ogham actually.

SO...

Heres the latest, with numbering system fixed for piranhas, vespids and a base 8 number system added. To make sure this is all paintable.. is there particular symbols that we recon would be exceptionally difficult to paint?

Image

(This is also in top post)

Mek
Last edited by Mek'an'ik on Aug 15 2011 04:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Didi et Gogo
Kor'Vre
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Re: Tau Squad Marking Scheme - Updated

Post#26 » Aug 13 2011 06:53

Not to throw another wrench in the system, but I think that the markings you have for the barracuda and manta are actually the numbers for zero and two. See this Lexicanum article. While the canon status of the font GW released some time ago isn't entirely clear, I suspect that the painters of the aircraft models used the existing font's numbering system. There are a few solutions: one is that the numerals used are the equivalent of arabic numerals, and your earth caste system is something akin to other numeral systems used by other earthly cultures.

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Mek'an'ik
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Re: Tau Squad Marking Scheme - Updated

Post#27 » Aug 14 2011 07:16

Lol right you are... I didn't cop that one. I saw them on the forgeworld pictures, thought "score" and put them in. Didn't even think to check against the transfers or anything!

I'll replace them as soon as I can!

And yeah, a few solutions present themselves, I like that idea... Just another numbering system used by tau in the past. Who knows, maybe the castes didn't all have the same language/writing system before the unification, and this was the fire caste numbering?

Mek
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Sem'ith
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Re: Tau Squad Marking Scheme - Updated

Post#28 » Aug 14 2011 11:18

A very outstanding system. Thank you for putting the thought into all of this. The chart for infantry and dismounted crew will be very useful. However, and I don't mean to tear your system apart by any means, there are a few things you might consider.

Would equipment really be marked to identify what it really is? That much should be obvious by appearance. Our military doesn't exactly put markings on our vehicles that say TANK, ABRAMS. They do have markings, obviously, and those markings are for status and billet.

First, tanks have markings for their platoon and company/troop and are marked on their order within the platoon (command, 2, 3, and 4) as well as battalion or regiment markings, "moto markings," and invasion markings. Ranks aren't often associated with a tank as the crew is made up of a variety of ranks, and I assume the Tau would do the same. A Shas'ui might command one vehicle but his/her crew would probably be Shas'la where as a Shas'vre might be the vehicle commander of the lead vehicle and also have Shas'la and for crew.

Aircraft have an entirely different marking system but most of the information conveyed is the same: various unit identifiers. Squadron, wing, homebase and other information is displayed on the tail. Most systems use a 3 digit number to identify squadron information on the nose (ever notice the Tau decals that say 320, 321, 322?) and as you know, aircraft often have the pilot's information painted beneath the canopy.

My point is, the vehicles themselves probably wouldn't be marked with chassis type so much as the dismounted crew would.

EDIT: One thing I wanted to emphasize was the "320" decal codes. A unit marked "320" doesn't mean 320th vehicle. It's more likely read as "3rd squadron, 2nd platoon, command vehicle"

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BDA
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Re: Tau Squad Marking Scheme - Updated

Post#29 » Aug 15 2011 07:30

I was going to rant about the how I loved it all apart from the numbering but you just went and fixed it lol
Very nice indeed.

I did my squad markings years back though and I will say you are going to have a hellish time fitting some of this on your units.
I ended up colouring the segmented leg armour a different colour to the armour and colouring different plates on each leg depending on the squad number and type.
I also did markings like the ones you have done on helmets but much simpler.
This is cos the more complex the system the more of a pain it is to get it looking the same on each min when doing freehand or trying to place it on a curved service with a transfer. Not so bad on tanks and suits mind you.

very nice all round and you will have to show us some finished mins :D

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Mek'an'ik
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Re: Tau Squad Marking Scheme - Updated

Post#30 » Aug 15 2011 04:30

Sem'ith wrote:A very outstanding system. Thank you for putting the thought into all of this. The chart for infantry and dismounted crew will be very useful. However, and I don't mean to tear your system apart by any means, there are a few things you might consider.

Would equipment really be marked to identify what it really is? That much should be obvious by appearance. Our military doesn't exactly put markings on our vehicles that say TANK, ABRAMS. They do have markings, obviously, and those markings are for status and billet.

First, tanks have markings for their platoon and company/troop and are marked on their order within the platoon (command, 2, 3, and 4) as well as battalion or regiment markings, "moto markings," and invasion markings. Ranks aren't often associated with a tank as the crew is made up of a variety of ranks, and I assume the Tau would do the same. A Shas'ui might command one vehicle but his/her crew would probably be Shas'la where as a Shas'vre might be the vehicle commander of the lead vehicle and also have Shas'la and for crew.

Aircraft have an entirely different marking system but most of the information conveyed is the same: various unit identifiers. Squadron, wing, homebase and other information is displayed on the tail. Most systems use a 3 digit number to identify squadron information on the nose (ever notice the Tau decals that say 320, 321, 322?) and as you know, aircraft often have the pilot's information painted beneath the canopy.

My point is, the vehicles themselves probably wouldn't be marked with chassis type so much as the dismounted crew would.

EDIT: One thing I wanted to emphasize was the "320" decal codes. A unit marked "320" doesn't mean 320th vehicle. It's more likely read as "3rd squadron, 2nd platoon, command vehicle"


Understood, and of course this is exactly how it works in militaries across the world.This world.

The unit markings you list are all present on the Tau vehicles, and that system probably works in the way you outline... but there are ALSO the line markings on the hulls.

I realise that yes, it is kind of ridiculous that it be Tank - Plasma.... but no more ridiculous than a symbol for a Crisis suit.

But In this context, would could they be? Battle motos? The tau have a written language that isnt battle markings. Commanders details? Possibly, but I don't know!

Im not an expert on military unit designation system by any means... But they are on the tanks, so I was attempting to come up with some class of system to explain them!

BDA wrote:I was going to rant about the how I loved it all apart from the numbering but you just went and fixed it lol
Very nice indeed.

I did my squad markings years back though and I will say you are going to have a hellish time fitting some of this on your units.
I ended up colouring the segmented leg armour a different colour to the armour and colouring different plates on each leg depending on the squad number and type.
I also did markings like the ones you have done on helmets but much simpler.
This is cos the more complex the system the more of a pain it is to get it looking the same on each min when doing freehand or trying to place it on a curved service with a transfer. Not so bad on tanks and suits mind you.

very nice all round and you will have to show us some finished mins :D


Cheers, Going to have to do that now!


Mek
Check out my sculpting blog:

Far Future East

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endling
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Re: Tau Squad Marking Scheme - Finalised??

Post#31 » Aug 16 2011 04:18

Just finished up painting a Piranha and an XV8 with these markings. Great job.

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Iceplague
Shas
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Re: Tau Squad Marking Scheme - Finalised??

Post#32 » May 10 2013 06:01

Well.. Since there is a new Codex out there, with a few new units added to it and new drones. Could there be an update to this as well? :)

New units:
XV104 Riptide
Sun Shark Bomber
Razorshark Strike Fighter
Missile Drone
Shielded Missile Drone
Interceptor Drone
Recon Drone

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nor'od-alex
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Re: Tau Squad Marking Scheme - Finalised??

Post#33 » May 11 2013 04:11

I believe that the markings are actually intended for the obvious reason of making post-encounter damage reports somewhat easier, and regrouping less difficult. as for the hulls... it is a mystery. a hilarious one.
sum commenta, ergo sum idotica.

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Mek'an'ik
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Re: Tau Squad Marking Scheme - Finalised??

Post#34 » May 11 2013 09:40

As requested, an update for new codex:

Image

Top post also updated to reflect latest version.

Mek
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Iceplague
Shas
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Re: Tau Squad Marking Scheme - Updated for New Codex

Post#35 » May 11 2013 01:36

Mek'an'ik! Wow! That was fast!

You are my hero at the moment, since I've just reached the phase of starting to paint on the markings on some of these new models, thus why I raised the question! ;)
Thank you!

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Jochmann
Shas'Ui
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Re: Hobby Resource [Tau Squad Marking Scheme] - Updated

Post#36 » May 11 2013 04:36

I just found the markings, thanks to Iceplague's "push". Great job, should become a resource in painting I think.

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