Sniper Teams?

Discuss home-brewed rules and units with fellow Earth caste engineers.
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QimRas
Shas'Saal
Posts: 274

Re: Sniper Teams?

Post#19 » Jul 17 2017 09:44

Pondering this a bit more. Lots of special rules, and kinda an odd stat line the more I think about it. Things that stand out:
*T4 infantry for tau is odd.
*Lots of special rules, combining both Stealth Suits and Marksman abilities.
*BS3+ is unusual outside tau characters.

You may want to start with a Pathfinder base, and try this on the table with those stats, then adjust to something functional. Other sniper units have some survival special rules, but Tau have the added advantage of Drones so may not need it depending on which drones you give them access to. Stealth Drones come to mind.

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Panzer
Shas'Saal
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Re: Sniper Teams?

Post#20 » Jul 17 2017 11:17

Kind of funny that your sniper team doesn't have the sniper rule. :D

Also 3 power seems to be a bit low for a team with Rail Rifles, 2+ armor in cover, -1 to-hit modifier, T4, BS3+ and Infiltrate so you can be sure to get them into cover.

I'd say drop the T4, drop either the Marksman Stealth Field or the Camouflage Fields and raise the power level a bit, add the Sniper rule for the Rail Rifle (call it high precision Rail Rifle or whatever) and you're good.

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
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Re: Sniper Teams?

Post#21 » Jul 18 2017 12:50

Panzer wrote:add the Sniper rule for the Rail Rifle (call it high precision Rail Rifle or whatever) and you're good.

I think in the case of a sniper team, the models should have the "sniper" rule, not the weapon itself. The spotters w/ Markerlights should be able to hit characters too.

And I didn't even notice the T4! For Tau, to be T4 you need to basically be made entirely of metal- a Drone, or a Stealthsuit. The squad would need to cost more I think.

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Panzer
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Re: Sniper Teams?

Post#22 » Jul 18 2017 01:35

Arka0415 wrote:
Panzer wrote:add the Sniper rule for the Rail Rifle (call it high precision Rail Rifle or whatever) and you're good.

I think in the case of a sniper team, the models should have the "sniper" rule, not the weapon itself. The spotters w/ Markerlights should be able to hit characters too.

In 8th the weapons have the special rule though. So if we want the markerlights to being able to target characters as well they'd need a special kind of markerlight.
Welcome to 8th. ;)

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Unusualsuspect
Kroot'Ui
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Re: Sniper Teams?

Post#23 » Jul 18 2017 02:06

Panzer wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:
Panzer wrote:add the Sniper rule for the Rail Rifle (call it high precision Rail Rifle or whatever) and you're good.

I think in the case of a sniper team, the models should have the "sniper" rule, not the weapon itself. The spotters w/ Markerlights should be able to hit characters too.

In 8th the weapons have the special rule though. So if we want the markerlights to being able to target characters as well they'd need a special kind of markerlight.
Welcome to 8th. ;)


The beauty of 8th edition is that you can bespoke up special rules that do the same thing without issue.

That said, it would fit better into 8th edition rule convention to format as you stated.





General feedback:

Change the speed from 7" to 6", or drop the armor from 4+ to 5+. You'll want either Fire Warriors or Pathfinders as your base statline for balance purposes, rather than the best of both.
Drop the T4 to T3, to better suit the Tau Infantry statline.
If you keep the BS3+ (and this is one of the few places that BS3+ would be appropriate for the T'au, IMO - the Firesight Marksman makes clear that a "marksman" can reach BS3+ levels of firepower, and this unit would be a grouping of T'au with similar levels of skill but a greater focus on their own shooting rather than manipulating drones), just make sure that's compensated for in the points.
Drop two of the following three: Infiltrate, extra +1 from cover, -1 to hit. A single model might get away with two out of the three, and a battlesuit could grant an extra one, but these are ultimately merely T'au infantry - all but the absolutely most elite (coughDarkstridercough) should not hold a candle to the stealth available through tech or through the extreme skill of the other races of the 40k verse.

I'm still not entirely clear where these Marksman are supposed to find their niche.

IF they are intended to be an alternative sniper to the Sniper Drones, they absolutely need some way to actually snipe characters - otherwise, they aren't doing what their role requires! I'd go with Panzer's suggestion and give them Marksman Rail Rifle, perhaps with a slightly modified profile (Heavy 1 36"?), that allows Characters to be targeted even if the character isn't the closest enemy model. If you decide to retain the existing Rail Rifle's Rapidfire profile, you'll need to significantly increase the Rifle's cost when you add in the Snipe ability. A Marksman Markerlight should have a similar increase in point cost.

Edit: If you go with character-targeting Rail Rifles, I can't emphasize enough that they should be rare and expensive. For inspiration on cost-to-firepower ratios, look at the Admech for inspiration - it has something akin to a Rail Rifle with the sniping ability, is costed highly, and can only be taken in small quantities.

Its also worth it, IMO, to attempt to balance things closer to Eldar Pathfinders, which you should seriously consider as an "upper end" of how expensive and elite your Marksman unit should be (not counting the cost of a Marksman Rail Rifle). A T'au character should be able to rival or outperform a Pathfinder in their statline, but even an elite team of T'au should at best rival the creme de la creme of elite snipers in the 40k universe.

If you go this route, I'd suggest a more pathfinder-esque statline, but with the extra +1 to cover saves and maaaaaaybe some form of infiltrate (instead of the extra 7" move before the game).

IF they are intended to be more like a Devastator squad (i.e. infantry with some ablative wounds that can carry around anti-heavy infantry weaponry), then they need to be clearly differentiated from Pathfinders, and so I'd use the Fire Warrior base statline (6" movement, 4+ armor save). This isn't really a Sniper role, but it could fall within the Marksman role, particularly if you play them up (in fluff) as the successors to the old Ethereal Honor Guard we used to have several editions ago (basically BS3+ Fire Warriors).
Last edited by Unusualsuspect on Jul 18 2017 02:57, edited 1 time in total.

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SniperTau
Shas'La
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Re: Sniper Teams?

Post#24 » Jul 18 2017 02:26

Judging by the first post these are meant to snipe characters like sniper drone teams. T3 is probably advisable, although depending on what model you make a 4+ save might be justified or not. Some sort of infiltration rule and a camouflage field would be justified.
So would BS3+.
This topic has generated so much discussion.

Keep on working on this Lil_misfit. I am loving this idea.

Sniper

Prophet224
Shas'Saal
Posts: 25

Re: Sniper Teams?

Post#25 » Jul 18 2017 02:46

I read that short story too and it has bugged me. I went looking for T'au snipers and all I found were drones. (Lots of nice sniper-like models at Wargames Exclusive though... just no way to use them as snipers.)

I'm still new myself, but I think if you make a couple of these abilities drone-dependent then it may all work out.

I'd give them the ability to take two stealthed observation drones. Make the snipers BS4+ and give the snipers something like this:
Drone observer: While within 3" of an observer drone T'au snipers receive +1 to their BS and +1 cover save.

I feel like that is an elegant solution that helps balance some of the issues around them.

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Panzer
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Re: Sniper Teams?

Post#26 » Jul 18 2017 02:54

The problem is that writer take the Pathfinder and think "hey cool that's a a sneaky unit of guys with a potent gun" and immediately go ahead and write them as some independently acting sniper/assassin team. Something the rules never even once told us they could do. Hell they don't even have any camo rule for hiding somewhere.
GWs rules write always wrote them as a support unit which can take some more heavy rifles with them, but never as sneaky sniper unit.

I'd honestly prefer Pathfinder to be represented as in those novels, campaign books, etc. but that's just not what we've been given unfortunately. So if you actually search for such a unit then the only thing similar to it you'll find are Pathfinder with Rail rifles.

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SniperTau
Shas'La
Shas'La
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Re: Sniper Teams?

Post#27 » Jul 18 2017 03:05

That's why he's making this unit. To fill that gap. I'm sure somewhere in the empire there has been rail rifles used as assassination weapons by small teams.

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Jefffar
Shas'Vre
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Re: Sniper Teams?

Post#28 » Jul 19 2017 05:49



Great job on making a datasheet.

Is there a way this could be turned into a usable template to share with the rest of us rules tinkerers?

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Lil_misfit
Shas'La
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Re: Sniper Teams?

Post#29 » Jul 19 2017 10:07

Hello Fellow T'au,

Wow, I did not expect such a flow of inputs to this topic so I'm working on tweaking the datasheet and getting some custom Pathfinder Sniper models made.

Is there a way this could be turned into a usable template to share with the rest of us rules tinkerers?


As for the datasheet template you guys should be thanking this guy:

http://myminiaturemischief.blogspot.com ... -pony.html

I just looked for the 8th ed template one of you guys talked about and thought this was it. Just save the images and use a photo editing software (I used paint.net) to make whatever you want. For the fonts I found that GW usually uses Times New Roman for most of their stuff.

I'm still new myself, but I think if you make a couple of these abilities drone-dependent then it may all work out.


To answer this, we already have a drone dependent sniper team and I was looking to make a non-drone dependent team. You'll still be able to attach drones to this teams as always (I've been thinking of that spotter drone idea some body mentioned).

Hopefully my next data sheet release for this will be balanced and as always:

Tau'va!

Lil_misfit
Most of my stuff is here!

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CDR_Farsight
Shas'Saal
Posts: 102

Re: Sniper Teams?

Post#30 » Jul 19 2017 11:06

Snipers have always bugged me in 40K in general. They always come in huge (relative to IRL) squads and don't represent how snipers operate at all. I like what you are trying to do here. It brings the feel of snipers to 40K and it most definitely fills a gap in the Tau codex.
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

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CDR_Farsight
Shas'Saal
Posts: 102

Re: Sniper Teams?

Post#31 » Jul 19 2017 11:07

The Gap: Tau lack a dedicated independent sniper unit that can also dish out Mortal Wounds. Sniper drones depend on Firesight Marksmen and Drone controllers just to get to the same BS of most other standard snipers in the game and STILL don't get the ability to inflict mortal wounds.

The intent of this entry is to create a unit that truly feels like a sniper team with a deadly alpha that quickly becomes squishy if they are discovered.

My $0.02 on a cool fluffy unit to fix that.

Pathfinder Recon Team
M5 WS5+ BS4+ S3 T3 W1 A1 Ld7 Sv5+

Unit consists of 2 Pathfinders. You may add up to 3 more Pathfinders to the unit. The unit may take any standard pathfinder drone options and may also take up to 1 stealth drone. Max unit size including any drones is 5 models.

Each Pathfinder is equipped with a Pulse Carbine and a Priority Target Markerlight. Up to 2 Pathfinders may exchange their Pulse Carbines and Priority Target Markerlights for a Precision Rail Rifle.

One pathfinder may be equipped with a Stealth Blind.

Special Rules:

In Position: This unit may be deployed at the beginning of any of your player turns. It must be set up at least 12" from any enemy models and at least 9" from any friendly models.

The Patient Kill: If a Pathfinder from this unit has not moved or fired during the previous owning players turn, the unit gains BS +1 and +1 to wound. Additionally, enemy units suffer a -1 to hit and this unit is granted an additional +2 from cover instead of the normal +1. This ability may be used turn 1 to represent this unit having been in the field and set up long before the battle started.

Position Compromised: If the unit has moved or fired during your previous turn, is the target of any friendly abilities other than from its own Pathfinder Recon Team Drones, or if an enemy model has moved within 6" of this unit, then this unit loses all benefits of The Patient Kill. Deployment using the In Position special rule does not count as movement.


Equipment

1. Precision Rail Rifle (36 pts)- 48" (on par with other snipers), can target characters, Heavy 1 AP -4 Damage 3, on a to wound roll of 6+ the weapon does an additional D3 Mortal Wounds. On a to wound roll of 7+ all damage is resolved as Mortal Wounds. On a to wound roll of 8+ wounds and/or damage may never be allocated to another model.

2. Priority Target Markerlight (12 pts) - 48" Heavy 1. Can target characters. Any model using a weapon with the "Sniper" key word may chose which markerlight benefit to apply. Any non-sniper unit may target an enemy character marked by a Priority Target Markerlight at -1 BS. Tactical Drones may target any unit marked by a Priority Target Markerlight that is in range, even if it is not the closest unit. Additionally, the Priority Target Markerlight unlocks the additional option of +1 to wound for models equipped with a Precision Rail Rifle.

3. Stealth Blind (10 pts): At any point in your movement phase, the Stealth Blind may be deployed up to 1" away. Enemy units targeting any Pathfinder Recon Team model within 3" of the Stealth Blind must resolve all shooting attacks at BS -1. If an enemy moves within 3" of the Stealth Blind, it is destroyed and removed.
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

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CDR_Farsight
Shas'Saal
Posts: 102

Re: Sniper Teams?

Post#32 » Jul 19 2017 11:18

To be clear on the Stealth Blind, I mean the Stealth Blind is destroyed and removed...not the enemy model, Haha.
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

Prophet224
Shas'Saal
Posts: 25

Re: Sniper Teams?

Post#33 » Jul 19 2017 11:55

To answer this, we already have a drone dependent sniper team and I was looking to make a non-drone dependent team. You'll still be able to attach drones to this teams as always (I've been thinking of that spotter drone idea some body mentioned).


I don't like the drone snipers either. But when you make certain abilities drone-dependent then you start to get more of the Tau feel. "Drone, keep the stealth field up. Other drone, find my target." (Thus +1 cover, +1BS.) From a fluff standpoint you are Tau using drones as support (as usual) instead of drones doing the actual dirty work. From a rules standpoint you are making certain extra buffs dependent on the tech (also very Tau-like) which lets you keep more abilities but gives opponents a way to counter them.

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QimRas
Shas'Saal
Posts: 274

Re: Sniper Teams?

Post#34 » Jul 19 2017 11:58

One benefit to making Drone dependent abilities is that you could use a normal Pathfinder squad.

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SniperTau
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 175

Re: Sniper Teams?

Post#35 » Jul 19 2017 02:41

Seems like this is coming along well :D
Spotter drone was my idea. :)

Keep going.

Sniper.

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CDR_Farsight
Shas'Saal
Posts: 102

Re: Sniper Teams?

Post#36 » Jul 20 2017 08:05

Drone dependent abilities were fine in 7th, and I agree that they fit the fluff better....but this is 8th. If you make the entire dynamic for one unit based off of a drone ability, then a single bored space marine can turn your elite sniper unit into a standard understrength pathfinder unit with a single shot (not to mention...yet another killpoint surrendered).

Base pathfinders are just about the only source for specialty drones, so I think whatever unit we are trying to make should be able to take drones if they want, but making their usefulness dependent on it is a huge no-no for 8th edition.

If you read my entry above 9hope you guys did...I put a lot of thought into it :sad: ), you'll see that taking the specialty drones in the Recon Squad instead of the standard Pathfinders squad makes them a bit more survivable as well, which may entice people to take them as a slightly more survivable gunline buffer instead of for their sniper ability [note: I don't start the unit with a sniper rifle for this exact reason].
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

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