[General] General Shadow Wars Discussion Thread

Discuss every aspect of the Shadow War stand-alone game.
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guges
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Re: [General] General Shadow Wars Discussion Thread

Post#109 » Apr 09 2017 10:18

In the original Necromunda, where everyone was an armorless guardsmen, shotguns and lasguns owned the table.

With lots of T4, 4+ armored guys and ammo rolls basically auto passing always, S4+ shooting is going to be the order of the day. Shotguns will be good, but lasguns and autoguns will not cut it as there will be lots of marine players.

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Panzer
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Re: [General] General Shadow Wars Discussion Thread

Post#110 » Apr 09 2017 10:47

I agree. Shotguns are most likely better than Autoguns. S4 is really neat and with the blast profile you can possibly pin multiple targets if they are close to eachother.
However lasguns aren't too bad either. They are ultra reliable and basically never run out of ammo and have more range than a shotgun. Can GSC take the Hotshot ammunition for their lasguns? Those trade some reliabilty for S4 (a good trade imo).

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Lyi'ot
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#111 » Apr 09 2017 11:20

Rizzle wrote:I had the chance to play a few practise games at our local store, in preparation of the campaign, and it's thrown up a lot of food for thought.

Markerlights really mess with target priority
When shooting you must target the closest model you can see, but you are also permitted to choose a different target if it would be an easier shot. You are still restricted to choosing the closest target at this lower 'difficulty' to shoot.
This can include penalties for weapon range, things like running and cover.
Normally this is straightforward, but as markerlights erase the cover bonus you can tilt the system in your favor. Imagine a line of foes in partial cover; by marking one they might become the closest target with no penalties and thus a legal shooting choice.

I can imagine moving a Pathfinder back to put partial cover on a closer target just so I can focus on a marked target further down the table. Other teams can pull tricks in this vein but only markerlights and onmispexen let you plan around it.

(Yes, this also makes my plan of using a screen of running drones as -1 to hit lightning rods trickier to set up. )

Being pinned is sad and the Shas'Ui/Bonding Knife Ability is no joke
Letting even drones with 12" of the leader take that 1-in-3 test to ignore pinning is great. It's a small mercy given how poor Tau initiative is, of course.

Tau on Tau fights are odd
As no very little in the kill team benefits from close range, and also pulse weapons perfectly counter T3 5+ models, we found the Tau mirror match an odd dance around the objectives. I enjoyed having some drones charging in and watching lots of failed falling tests.
That said, the team to get the first solid round of shooting in had a decisive advantage.

Stealth Team Leader is a good choice on Scavenger missions
Although costly to hire, the pre-game 20" move can secure the loot before a shot is even fired. On their way back for extraction you can enjoy their (superb) durability and the possibilities of a BS4 burst cannon. Possibly even justified as each loot counter has a 1-in-6 chance of being a bonus promethium cache.

Fantastic analysis, Rizzle. The point about target priority and markerlights is right on the money -- it's something that sets our shooting apart from others', but isn't immediately obvious.

Tau-on-Tau fights have always been weird; we've always been most effective against ourselves.

The only point I disagree with is the Stealth Team Leader; he's always a good choice. :D

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Panzer
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Re: [General] General Shadow Wars Discussion Thread

Post#112 » Apr 10 2017 01:12

Yeah the Markerlight rules let our Sniper actually snipe the nasty heavy weapons our opponent tries to hide in the back. Unless of course he has someone else out in the open we'd have to shoot first. :D

And yes the Stealth Spec-Op is really good. Burst Cannon is no bad weapon at all in SW:A and having always the -2 to-hit modifier even out in the open which can't get ignored by Omnispex or Markerlights is strong as hell! Just be careful about weapons that get a +1/+2 modifier depending on the range. Once he gets hit he is rather easy to kill...same old story for our stealthy guys. :roll:
How does he get BS4 though? I don't think Spec-Ops can advance since you've to hire them for each mission anew.
(You said "Stealth Team Leader" so maybe just bad wording but note that he will never be your leader. Your leader is your leader and when he is dead another one becomes your leader but Stealth Suits are spec-ops who aren't part of your regular team)

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Rizzle
Kor'La
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Re: [General] General Shadow Wars Discussion Thread

Post#113 » Apr 10 2017 03:53

The Stealth Team Shas'Ui special operative has a native ballistic skill of 4. Presumably they have smuggled in a targeting array support system from the 4th edition-era Codex...
I misremembered it as a Shas'Vre and 'translated' it back into being a team leader for a stealth team, though :smile:

Another quick observation: the pinned and downed conditions don't interfere with abilities unless they explicitly state that they do. For example, the standard 6" bubble models with the Leader role to project confering their leadership value for all tests, their initiative on pinning tests and the chance to take a pinning check at the start of the turn is conditional on being on your feet. Conversely, the Bonding Knife Ritual only requires the Shas'Ui to be on the table to function.
Three cheers for the rigorous training of the Shas'ar'tol!

The same is true of the Pulse Accelerator and Grav Inhibitor rules.



Also! Thank you Lyi'ot for getting the Shadow Ops Centre up and running - I'll try to get some photos of my WIP team tonight for some comments and criticism. How would folk feel about starting to collate ideas and insights towards Recon Team Essentials articles? I can see a markerlight primer, mission objective observations and crib note on how Tau line up against other teams being a handy resource.
(Ideally with a better name than that, distinct from both the Tactica and Primer articles already integral to this site...)

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Panzer
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Re: [General] General Shadow Wars Discussion Thread

Post#114 » Apr 10 2017 04:52

Rizzle wrote:The Stealth Team Shas'Ui special operative has a native ballistic skill of 4. Presumably they have smuggled in a targeting array support system from the 4th edition-era Codex...
I misremembered it as a Shas'Vre and 'translated' it back into being a team leader for a stealth team, though :smile:

It has BS4? Wow I totally didn't notice. Awesomesauce! :o

Rizzle wrote:How would folk feel about starting to collate ideas and insights towards Recon Team Essentials articles? I can see a markerlight primer, mission objective observations and crib note on how Tau line up against other teams being a handy resource.
(Ideally with a better name than that, distinct from both the Tactica and Primer articles already integral to this site...)

Potentially not a bad idea, but why not let us get some experience first before attempting to write something up. :D



A thing I noticed when reading through the rules and stats though...Tau are bad in melee. Yes yes I know, that's nothing new. However while with the current system of 7th edition in 40k we could sometimes get in a lucky hit, the system we have in SW:A makes it MUCH harder since it's a comparing test. A Space Marine that charges a Pathfinder is already 3 points ahead in terms of combat result and (obviously) has higher initiative. So we'd have to roll a 5 or 6 to win the roll-off if the Marine player rolls just a 1 even.
So yeah unless it's against Guardsmen or similar better don't expect to win against anyone in melee. Tyranids with an additional pair of Scything Talons auto-win against Pathfinder even if they get the charge (which they should with potentially M6).

There is hope though. Against a melee list it might actually be worth it to stick together so we can use our supporting fire special rule. Means we can shoot in our shooting phase AND shoot overwatch against a charging enemy. Or if he was hiding out of line of sight we can set our guys into overwatch mode and fire overwatch twice against a charging enemy.
Definitely food for thought. I think positioning and using overwatch will decide a lot of our matches in SW:A.

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Rizzle
Kor'La
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Re: [General] General Shadow Wars Discussion Thread

Post#115 » Apr 10 2017 05:12

Panzer wrote:Potentially not a bad idea, but why not let us get some experience first before attempting to write something up. :D

Oh for sure! I wouldn't expect to publish polished articles any time soon, but rather start collecting thoughts with intent. That said, there's some orientation stuff bubbling along in this thread that might be worth reformatting to a higher standard alongside the kind of things Necromunda veterans take for granted that might trip up people coming from a recent 40k edition.


Panzer wrote:I think positioning and using overwatch will decide a lot of our matches in SW:A.


Exactly correct on this point! I'm warming to the grav-inhibitor drone as a tool for (sacrificially...) dictating the terms of hand-to-hand engagement. It isn't too hard to imagine situations where it gives a melee opponent the choice of charging into a Supporting Fire 'trap' or taking on the drone and being left in the open if they have the fortune to win the fight.

Just be very cautious about bunching to receive a charge as the 2" consolidation move that a model can make after downing all foes in hand-to-hand looks like it allows them to get in to close combat without provoking another round of Supporting Fire. Or rather, my reading of that rule is that this movement isn't a charge and I'd be very happy to be shown why I'm wrong.

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Tael
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Re: [General] General Shadow Wars Discussion Thread

Post#116 » Apr 10 2017 05:13

There is hope though. Against a melee list it might actually be worth it to stick together so we can use our supporting fire special rule. Means we can shoot in our shooting phase AND shoot overwatch against a charging enemy. Or if he was hiding out of line of sight we can set our guys into overwatch mode and fire overwatch twice against a charging enemy.
Definitely food for thought. I think positioning and using overwatch will decide a lot of our matches in SW:A.

Agree with this, first thing I noted when looking for potential HtH deterrents - this close range crossfire can be deadly.

Has me thinking about fire teams of 3 warriors each, can pressre and feint, but if jumped - thats a lot of firepower splashing the CC specialist.

As for articles, I have loads of top down Tau art and can whip up some rubble/city terrain for explanation grpahics and so forth. As always, my crayons are poised to help.

- Tael.

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guges
Shas'La
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Re: [General] General Shadow Wars Discussion Thread

Post#117 » Apr 10 2017 05:19

Given that ammo rolls are 2d6 now, you won't be failing them often enough for it to matter unless you have a 7+ ammo roll weapon. Makes lasgun reliability not much of an advantage.

Given that a lot of people will be playing marines and that most factions have access to T4 or 4+ armor, lasguns will not be effective at shooting. Wounding on a 5 and offering a 4+ save means your lasgun will rarely injure someone. Given that marines get up from pinning almost automatically, even using them to pin won't really helpm.

You're much better off spending the points on S4 weapons.

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Panzer
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Re: [General] General Shadow Wars Discussion Thread

Post#118 » Apr 10 2017 05:29

guges wrote:Given that ammo rolls are 2d6 now, you won't be failing them often enough for it to matter unless you have a 7+ ammo roll weapon. Makes lasgun reliability not much of an advantage.

Given that a lot of people will be playing marines and that most factions have access to T4 or 4+ armor, lasguns will not be effective at shooting. Wounding on a 5 and offering a 4+ save means your lasgun will rarely injure someone. Given that marines get up from pinning almost automatically, even using them to pin won't really helpm.

You're much better off spending the points on S4 weapons.

As I also said, you can upgrade the Lasgun to S4 by taking Hotshot ammunition.
Also I don't think THAT many people will play Marines. Not like in regular 40k. Sure, they will be there, but there are also a lot of people who are quite happy about the opportunity to play something else than Marines without having to invest into a full army. Especially Guardsmen we will see often I'm sure of. It's not always about killing your whole opponents team rather than playing the mission while stopping the opponent from killing your guys.

Don't get me wrong though, Marines will be hard to face but they aren't broken and they won't be the only team you'll be facing. Also while Lasguns (especially with Hotshot ammunition) is not a bad weapon, it's obviously not the one you'll take to kill the enemies....but that counts for Shotguns just as well. Those aren't that dangerous either. You have specialists for that task. ;)

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guges
Shas'La
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Re: [General] General Shadow Wars Discussion Thread

Post#119 » Apr 10 2017 05:40

I think Guardsmen are the only guys who get hotshot ammo and it will probably be effective at S4.

I think you will easily have 50% of the people who end up playing this with marines. They come in the box set, they're very powerful, and a zillion people already play them.

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Tael
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Re: [General] General Shadow Wars Discussion Thread

Post#120 » Apr 10 2017 05:43

Well.. those that got the Boxed Set haha.

Talking that, anyone here have it? Could I have the measurements for the tokens please?

Movement/Actions
Promethium tokens etc

I want to try out a Tau styled set for ATT members to use. :)

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Panzer
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Re: [General] General Shadow Wars Discussion Thread

Post#121 » Apr 10 2017 05:47

Tael wrote:Well.. those that got the Boxed Set haha.

Talking that, anyone here have it? Could I have the measurements for the tokens please?

Movement/Actions
Promethium tokens etc

I want to try out a Tau styled set for ATT members to use. :)

One in our group got it. I can take measures Thursday/Friday if nobody else did by then (and if I don't forget about it :P )

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Tael
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Re: [General] General Shadow Wars Discussion Thread

Post#122 » Apr 10 2017 05:52

Hah - Cheers man, appreciated.

Much like my Aeronautica Imperialis cards, makeovers of the originals essentially.

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Czar Ziggy
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Re: [General] General Shadow Wars Discussion Thread

Post#123 » Apr 10 2017 07:15

Hey Tael, I got a set. I'll get you the measurements when I get home from work today. Roughly 10 hrs from now.

Czar Ziggy

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Panzer
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Re: [General] General Shadow Wars Discussion Thread

Post#124 » Apr 11 2017 04:36

By the way there's already a battlescribe file for shadow wars.

Looks good so far except for one thing: I couldn't find Weapon Reload but Photo-Visor instead.

Edit: found the weapon reload. You have to click on the weapon you want to give it first.

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Rizzle
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Re: [General] General Shadow Wars Discussion Thread

Post#125 » Apr 11 2017 05:16

Tael wrote:...
Has me thinking about fire teams of 3 warriors each, can pressre and feint, but if jumped - thats a lot of firepower splashing the CC specialist.


I've been working around fire teams of 3 carbines plus a drone of any flavour as my basic 'unit' for much the same reasons. It's enough bodies that you can pack a punch and still screen a valuable individual, but not so big as to be unwieldy. With the -1 for overwatch and the -1 for a charging model it is "only" half a hit on average. Blimey will that hit sting, though!

Under the Shadow War rules the charge fails from a single hit as the charging model will be pinned. The overwatching model can nominate the point at which they fire, so it's your choice where they fall - keep an eye out for likely edges!
For context, the Community Edition of Necromunda recently changed to allow a charging model to ignore pinning from Overwatch fire unless shooting causes a roll on the Injury table. I wouldn't be surprised to see this creep in via an FAQ later.

It also looks like you could set your fighters on Overwatch in addition to this to really up the chance of blunting a charge. I need to spend some quality time with the rulebook to be certain how intentional Overwatch and the Supporting Fire rules interact to be sure of this, though.

Re: crayons - Tau'va! High quality doodles would be superb! And Tau Tokens would surpass my plans to use X Wing tokens for Shadow War. So hurrah! on that count.

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Tael
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Re: [General] General Shadow Wars Discussion Thread

Post#126 » Apr 11 2017 10:02

Under the Shadow War rules the charge fails from a single hit as the charging model will be pinned. The overwatching model can nominate the point at which they fire, so it's your choice where they fall - keep an eye out for likely edges!

Quoted for potential Tau Tactica : Shadow War

Re: crayons - Tau'va! High quality doodles would be superb! And Tau Tokens would surpass my plans to use X Wing tokens for Shadow War. So hurrah! on that count.

Working on them at the moment, been staring at pixels too long so needed to read! :D

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