[General] General Shadow Wars Discussion Thread

Discuss every aspect of the Shadow War stand-alone game.
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Calmsword
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[General] General Shadow Wars Discussion Thread

Post#1 » Mar 29 2017 06:24

Hey everyone,

Got to look at the rules today. Working from my phone but I figured I could upload them here before I reorganize when I get home,

Link to photos removed

In summation, I think this is a really good look at 8ed in action. The unit information has all the details on a card rather than a codex as well as explanations for USR. In other entries I saw specific weapons indicating armor modifiers (pulse rifles have -2 while bolters are -1) which will explosively change this game if they cardy over.

I am excited to play shadow war, even if I'm dubious about the fact Firewarrior line troopers arent an option yet terminators are.

Posting photos or scans of rules is in direct contravention of ATT's rules. - Shas'o Lyi'ot
~Good Hunting

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CmdrCASh
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#2 » Mar 29 2017 06:50

Interesting, but I'm not sure if this is just a nod to Necromunda rather than a look at 8th.
Will these rules scale properly away from skirmish to 40k levels of engagements?

I find it a bit mystifying that the only differences between a rail rifle and an ion rifle are the effective ranges and range bands. One is slightly longer ranged. One is better at long ranges but the other better at short. :-?
Ka'ash Sept

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Panzer
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#3 » Mar 29 2017 07:55

Nice!

Okay some things I noticed:
- Pulse Carbines are still worse than Pulse Rifles. I mean this time they don't even have Pinning or more shots (in that 3" range) in their favor. They could have easily made it better by giving Pulse Carbines +1 at short range. Meh.
- Ion Rifles pretty much became shotguns. +1 at short range (which is 0-12") while Rail Rifles became clunky sniper rifles (can't move and shoot and get +1 at long range). Otherwise they have the same strength, dmg and save mod. values. Guess it depends on how well cover camping works but I don't think more than one Rail Rifle will ever be worth it due not being able to move.
- everyone can take Pulse Pistols. They get +1 at short range but have no save mod....not sure if it's worth it tbh.
- Burst Cannons can do serious damage now since they get to use 2 sustained fire dice (usueable by the Recon Drone and the Stealth Shas'Ui special operative)
- Infiltrate = 2 run moves before the game begins and not closer than 8" to the enemy. Sounds more useuable than regular infiltrate on boards without a lot of line of sight blocker
- they fixed the issue of Markerlights being worthless in skirmish games but also nerfed their effect. Now a model can sacrifice their shooting (even after moving) to target an enemy model withing 30" and in line of sight so all your models who shoot at that model ignore To Hit penalties for cover.
- -2 save mod on Pulse Carbines, Pulse Rifles and Burst Cannons might actually make then feel less useless against MEQs. With their strength of 5 they might actually become one of the strongest basic weapons in Shadow Wars. Guess that balances our BS of 3 which we can't improve with Markerlights here.


Overall I like it except that Carbines are just worse Rifles and that we can't move&shoot with Rail Rifles anymore (though the +1 at long range for 16-30" sure is nice!).

Can't wait to play some games. Now I feel even less bad about my 30 Pathfinder. :D



About 8th edition. Don't expect too much to carry over from Shadow Wars to 8th edition. For example Terminator armor is 3+ but rolled with 2d6 (plus the regular 5++).
I can't imagine that kind of thing becoming a thing in regular 40k since 10 man unit of Firewarrior with Fireblade/Ethereal and 2 Markerlights would mean ~16 individually rolled armor saves which would be a PAIN to do....and such a szenario surely is nothing too special considering Infantry Tau is a thing in less competetive games.

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Lyi'ot
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#4 » Mar 30 2017 12:14

Posting photos or scans of the rules is a violation of GW's IP and in direct contravention of ATT's rules.

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Calmsword
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#5 » Mar 30 2017 01:13

Sure- my mistake- there's been posting of leaks of books and wd's before and I didn't think it was a big deal, no need to hammer down.

It won't happen again Por'O Lyi'ot.
~Good Hunting

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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#6 » Mar 30 2017 01:18

All's well that ends well.

I'm excited for Shadow War; it's the excuse I've been wanting to build small squads of my different armies. But a real talk about the rules will have to wait until they're really released.

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Calmsword
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#7 » Mar 30 2017 01:34

Indeed- I'm extremely excited about it and when it arrived in our store it seemed to excite the base who all seem to want to get to grips with 3-4 different 'gangs' which is really getting us all out of our army 'bubble' (as much as I love Tau I actually want to play Space Marines for the first time).

I'll wait with baited breath for the official release and post appropriately when the time comes.
~Good Hunting

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Panzer
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#8 » Mar 30 2017 06:33

Lol....

good thing i've already saved and spread them in our whatsapp group. It was worth it not going to sleep until 5am. :D

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Rizzle
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#9 » Mar 30 2017 08:19

Panzer wrote:They fixed the issue of Markerlights being worthless in skirmish games but also nerfed their effect. Now a model can sacrifice their shooting (even after moving) to target an enemy model withing 30" and in line of sight so all your models who shoot at that model ignore To Hit penalties for cover.


Is this a nerf? Sounds like a job for MATHS!

Lets have a look at a single BS3 S5 shot at T3, T4 and T5 - or rather, how many armour saves does a single pathfinder provoke? For these calculations I'm assuming that to hit/wound are exactly as they were in Necromunda, and ingoring the effect of armour and injury rolls as these will be the same for all wounds we generate.

Code: Select all

        To hit   T3      T4      T5   
Open     0.50   0.42    0.35    0.29
Partial  0.33   0.22    0.15    0.10
Full     0.17   0.08    0.04    0.02


It's easy to see how many wounds each extra 'finder will add by doubling, tripling,... etc those numbers. What do we expect for 1 markerlight and 1 pathfinder, though? Here's the expected "gain" of ML+'finder over 2 pathfinders:

Code: Select all

           T3     T4     T5
Open     -0.42  -0.35   -0.29
Partial  -0.03   0.05    0.09
Full      0.25   0.26    0.25


And for 1 ML + 2 'finders over 3 pathfinders:

Code: Select all

           T3     T4     T5   
Open     -0.42  -0.35   -0.29
Partial   0.17   0.25    0.28
Full      0.58   0.57    0.52


Now, I'd like to revisit this once I've had time to read through all the rules, but here is the snap conclusion:
  • In general, a markerlight is more useful as toughness and cover increase
  • Never use markerlights on a target in the open. This is obvious, but it's a nice sanity check of the numbers here
  • For a pair of Pathfinders, it's of marginal benefit vs. partial cover and and worthwhile vs. full cover...
  • ..but your increased floor is matched by a reduced ceiling; 2 pathfinders could inflict 2 wounds at best, even if ML + 'finder is more likely to wound overall

For now, I reckon a good rule of thumb is to only markerlight against partial cover when 2 or more shots will use the benefit, and be very willing to use it against full cover. It's an interesting tool and I'm surprised we can move & markerlight. Thinking this through, I suspect Tau are likely to be the kings of dealing with high toughness/high armour foes in this game as their high strength and -2 save modifier guns cannot even be reliably hindered by cover.

And finally, all this goes out of the window if you need that railrifle to strike true :D

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Panzer
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#10 » Mar 30 2017 08:29

I don't need math for that though. What I said is true without calculating anything. A single Markerlight can do less than in regular 40k since it can ONLY remove cover and not boost the ballistic skill. That's a fact. It's more efficient (not effective!) in removing cover.
And as I also said it gets balanced by not having to hit with it in the first place. ;)

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Rizzle
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#11 » Mar 30 2017 08:36

This is fair!
Bear in mind that cover in this game is a penalty to hit rather than modern 40k's alternate save, so with cover it's a 100% reliable +1 or +2 to hit - frequently a huge boon - against never providing a benefit to shots in the open and having a relatively high opportunity cost. I wouldn't label that a nerf, precisely - as you noted above, the codex markerlight rules would be borderline atrocious in this game.

That said, I wasn't intending to counter your claim, so much as work out the situations in which this rules set is advantageous to Tau kill teams :smile:

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Panzer
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#12 » Mar 30 2017 08:41

Aye. Hence why I didn't call it a straight nerf. Just their effectivenes got nerfed. You can never shoot better than you can in open field as opposed as it is in regular 40k.
And that's the whole point of our discussion. You think I said they got nerfed while I only said their effectiveness got nerfed which is a fact since they can do less than before (but what they can do they can do better which I also said). ;)

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Rizzle
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#13 » Mar 30 2017 08:52

Indeed and agreed.

And very excited to see the rules drop! Need to work out how much modelling to do beyond my existing infantry teams. Games Workshop have managed to make me feel good about being involved in the hobby lately between this and other recent releases/announcements.

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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#14 » Mar 30 2017 01:11

I only got a short look at the rules before they were pulled, but what about photo grenades? Are you able to fire them from the pulse carbines, or not?

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Panzer
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#15 » Mar 30 2017 01:34

TauMan wrote:I only got a short look at the rules before they were pulled, but what about photo grenades? Are you able to fire them from the pulse carbines, or not?

TauMan

No. It only prevents the charging enemy from getting +1 in the following hand-to-hand combat phase if you weren't already engaged before.

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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#16 » Mar 30 2017 04:17

Panzer wrote:No. It only prevents the charging enemy from getting +1 in the following hand-to-hand combat phase if you weren't already engaged before.


I have literally been waiting years for a WH40K skirmish game, a game whose scale is the appropriate and legitimate place to throw grenades, and they do what? Pulse carbines have grenade launchers, so do some IG weapons.

What about frag grenades? Stikk bombs? Wait don't answer that!

Note-to-myself wrote:Write or import rules for grenades. Check Gorkamorka rules. Probably will have crappy rules for flamers as well...hmm...consider importing flamer rules from Space Hulk. Ah, what about high yield weapons like burst cannons and heavy bolters? Must think about what to do about this...


**Sigh** looks like these rules will need a make over before they're playable! :sad:

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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#17 » Mar 31 2017 04:22

Poor grenade rules? That is disappointing, once I couldnt throw individual grenades, it was one abstraction to far for me.

They did mention issues with bounce back etc, perhaps we're missing something?

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Panzer
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#18 » Mar 31 2017 06:08

Oh there ARE grenades you can throw. Not our grenades though. Those are apparently purely defensive ones. :D

Btw. go to the GW New Zealand page. There are Shadow Wars Killteam boxes to pre-order with free rules to download (all Killteams in a single PDF not including Orkz, regular Marines and Astra Militarum since those are in the core box). ;)


EDIT: or just download them here :D
https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/ShadowWar/SWA_Killteams_ENG.pdf

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