[General] General Shadow Wars Discussion Thread

Discuss every aspect of the Shadow War stand-alone game.
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Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3548

Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#55 » Apr 02 2017 10:40

Considering that the whole system is based around models basically always being in half-cover or cover and we being easily able to ignore it by just pointing a Markerlight guy in that direction I don't think we hit that much worse than others to be honest.
If everything is in half-cover and we have Markerlights on our side we already hit just as good as any other faction. If everything is in cover we hit better by one than almost every other faction and better by two than the others.

The range and the 5+ armor is a problem, yeah. But we luckily have ways around it with the pulse drone and Rail Rifles. (Ion Rifles are just glorified Shotguns with their -1 to hit at 13"-24" coupled with our BS3 lol).

The biggest problem will be I2 and that was always the case in skirmish games for Tau. We are just better if we stay on the ground hiding behind small walls and lurking around corners. :D

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guges
Shas'La
Shas'La
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#56 » Apr 03 2017 05:41

Having lots of markerlights is going to get costly fast. It's 105 points for a Pathfinder with a markerlight and a carbine with 5+ armor. Needing a pulse drone for every three models or so jacks his real cost up to 120 points. I don't have the prices of guardsmen in front of me, but I highly doubt a Kasrkin or whatever they're called these days costs that much. I'm hoping a scout with a bolter is more expensive than that as well.

Here's what my starting list will look like. I don't understand why drones count towards the number of models you can have given that doesn't follow how the squad can be formed in 40k. You should be able to take 10 Pathfinders plus three drones. I feel like this list let's you have 10 models and maximizes the amount of markerlights you can have in the army.

Leader 140, Carbine 30, Marker 15
Pathfinder 60, Carbine 30, Marker 15
Pathfinder 60, Carbine 30, Marker 15
Pathfinder 60, Carbine 30, Marker 15
Pathfinder 60, Carbine 30
Pathfinder 60, Carbine 30
Pathfinder 60, Carbine 30
Recon Drone 110
Pulse Drone 50
Pulse Drone 50

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Rizzle
Kor'La
Kor'La
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#57 » Apr 03 2017 05:50

guges wrote:It really seems like the Tau excel at nothing and are pretty mediocre at everything... [SNIP] ...I'm hoping the drones make up the diffence... [SNIP]


You hit the nail on the head here - Tau Pathfinders in this system don't do much that anyone else can't excel at. They aren't durable, access to LD8 is merely fine, and whilst they can put out volume of S5 fire there are factions with heavy/special weapons that make that look less impressive. They aren't even the best shooty faction with cover ignoring tricks, as photo-visors, higher BS, scopes/laser sights, range bonuses and the Skitarii omnispex all mitigate cover to a reasonable degree.

That's not to say that the Tau team can't compete. I'm very much looking forward to fielding them and I like where they fit in as a 'normal' team.
Based purely on theorycrafting plus experience of Necromunda, I actually think that the 'meta' strength of the Pathfinder team lies with their drones, particularly the pulse accelerator drone. They are Necron-warrior-tough and Eldar-fast for a mere 50pts, making them possibly the best ablative models in the game:

  • T4 and 4+ Sv will help the whole team if Shadow War carries over the Necromunda restriction that you can only shoot the nearest target.
  • Without guns of their own, there is no opportunity cost to declaring a Run move and enjoying a -1 to hit penalty on the following turn. (Can anyone confirm whether a model needs to actually move over their base move to claim this benefit? If so then 2 drones swapping places should do the trick.)
    EDIT: This doesn't work as I'd hoped! The shooting rules force you to target the closest enemy, but you can ignore that enemy for a more distant one if it's an easier shot. So a close runner can't be ignored to shoot a fellow in cover, but if both were in partial cover it would be the shooters choice.
  • M6 and intrinsic Ld8 is great for objective grabbing missions.
  • They aren't atrocious in melee thanks to that durability. I wouldn't plan around it, but if a non-melee model ends up within 12" of 2-3 drones then a multi-charge isn't ridiculous and proably unexpected. The second drone will have an effective WS3, A2 and the third WS4, A3.
  • They take a charge well - when other models are charged you 'miss out' on the Supporting Fire overwatch from that figure. As the drone has no weapons, you miss nothing and friendlies within 3" can still help.
  • Most of the above is common to ablative models in general, but drones also bring useful kit to the party. By the current wording pulse accelerator fields stack, so early game you can enjoy cover-ignoring hot-fiery-death out to 30". After that you can split in to 2 fire teams with 24" range and a helpful tank.
  • At 50 points they are easy to replace. Presuming you can recruit multiple models between missions with the 100pt budget, that's a pair or a one plus and unarmed recruit in a pinch. Obviously you miss out on buying photon grenades and clip harnesses each time you do this.

tl;dr Tau drones are the secret sauce of the Pathfinder Kill Team. You will take wounds, so try to take those on the durable, cheap, harder-to-hit, replaceable frisbees.
Last edited by Rizzle on Apr 07 2017 05:19, edited 1 time in total.

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guges
Shas'La
Shas'La
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#58 » Apr 03 2017 06:00

Wow didn't think about stacking accelerators. I doubt that's intentional but will probably take a while for GW to faq it.

Also didn't think about keeping them moving to make them harder to hit either. That's brilliant.

I'm worried they will be hard to keep under cover with their flight stands. I guess they can hide a lot.

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Rizzle
Kor'La
Kor'La
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#59 » Apr 03 2017 06:04

Hiding pulse accelerators in early turns to keep them safe when you need that range bonus is a very good call, guges. After that they can go a-skirmishing :biggrin:

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Panzer
Shas'Saal
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#60 » Apr 03 2017 06:11

Yeah Drones definitely help but I don't think they are 'the key'. I'm sure you can play just fine without any Drones if you are smart.

In fact I think a list like the one guges posted is one of the most efficient as starting force.
I'd even degrade the 3 Pathfinder without Markerlights to New Recruits and give two of them Markerlights as well. The only difference is that they can't get skills or pistols which doesn't really hurt since after 3 games they are regular Pathfinder again and you have enough guys to select for the advance step left.
It's just a pretty boring list imo since all of them are the same.

Do the Drones effects really stack though? In 40k you can benefit once from an effect coming from the same source (source being the rule "Pulse Accelerator" here). Is that different in Necromunda/Shadow Wars?


Also we are a lot better than Skitarii at ignoring cover since we can move before using it and every model in our team would benefit from it instead of only the ones within 6" of the Omnispex. ;)

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Rizzle
Kor'La
Kor'La
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#61 » Apr 03 2017 06:27

Panzer wrote:Do the Drones effects really stack though? In 40k you can benefit once from an effect coming from the same source (source being the rule "Pulse Accelerator" here). Is that different in Necromunda/Shadow Wars?

Necromunda never had any provision like this, but it might well have crept in to Shadow War. For now I only have the text of the Pulse Accelerator wargear they carry to go on.

Code: Select all

Tau fighters within 3" may add 6" to the Long Range of
any Pulse Carbines, Pulse Rifles or Pulse pistols they are
equipped with.


Certainly worth a careful reading of the core rules once available.

Panzer wrote:Also we are a lot better than Skitarii at ignoring cover since we can move before using it and every model in our team would benefit from it instead of only the ones within 6" of the Omnispex. ;)

Markerlights are certainly the best overall at cover mitigation, but Skitarii can exploit it well with BS4 and telescopic sights for another +1 to hit when stationary. I've seen references to photo-visors needing the user to stay still to benefit from them, which is a drawback that markerlights avoid.

Maybe the Tau niche is mobile power? Get in, hit the objective, get out. If they have the tools to do that well then nothing else really matters :)

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guges
Shas'La
Shas'La
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#62 » Apr 03 2017 06:42

I don't think Tau really have a niche. I think they will just be sub par and hard to play. That won't stop me from playing them for the models, however.

I also think cadets are a waste of points. You can only have 10 models and saving 10 points on a cadet isn't getting you anything. You're going to want three drones and you can easily have them and seven pathfinders without using cadets. If you could have more than 10 models, then lots of cadets could help you have an expanded force of one or two extra models. Given a starting gang is limited to 10, cadets don't help.

As for all of the models being the same... well... you really can't play Tau any other way in Shadow War right now. Your dudes either have a pistol or a carbine. If I need +1 to hit at 8", I'm already dead, so it seems like making all of my enemies take -2 to their saves is far better for the same points.

There's also no way in hell an ion rifle or rail rifle is worth more points than your leader. The extra six inches you get will rarely be that useful unless your tables have seriously sparse terrain.

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Panzer
Shas'Saal
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#63 » Apr 03 2017 07:31

I really don't think Tau are that bad, guges.
Try to write a list for Tyranids. Sure they are pretty damn scary but i found that if you want to have a big gun in your list you can't have more than 3 models at the beginning. Plus they can only take one weapon additionally to their Scything Talons so if they run out of ammo on their big gun that guy (that probably was pretty far away) HAS to get into melee and is pretty much useless until then.

Sure in a void Cadets are not worth it but as seen with your list, taking 3 Cadets instead of Troops will give you 2 more Markerlights (redundancy is a nice thing and gives you more freedom to move around and chose with which one you want to shoot!) while not really sacrificing anything. Those three Cadets will mature into Troops before you are even through your other guys giving each of them a Skill in case you happen to roll the Skill result every time...which is pretty unlikely anyway.

Oh and yes you can play Tau in another way.
I have a leader with Carbine, Pistol, Grenade and some other fancy stuff, a Trooper with dual Pistol, a Trooper with Carbine and Markerlight, a specialist with Ion Rifle, a specialist with Rail Rifle and a Recon Drone in my 1000p starter list. And that's only one example of how to do it differently.
The specialist Rifles aren't about the extra range. They are about the extra strength and additional wounds trying to force a down (or even out) result on one of the enemy models instead of just pinning them.

By now I'm rather sure that the free pdf factions are only temporary until GW releases more expansions (if they do). The three box factions seem to have received a lot more thinking with their additional clans/homeworlds/chapter etc.

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guges
Shas'La
Shas'La
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#64 » Apr 03 2017 07:50

I don't think the grenades are worth it. Taking away one attack is rarely going to save you.

Taking cadets to get more markers could be interesting. Might make them worthwhile.

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Panzer
Shas'Saal
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#65 » Apr 03 2017 07:56

guges wrote:I don't think the grenades are worth it. Taking away one attack is rarely going to save you.

Taking cadets to get more markers could be interesting. Might make them worthwhile.

You don't take away one attack. You take away 1 from the combat result. Sure it won't save your ass against a dedicated melee unit but i sure as hell don't want to lose a melee combat against Guardsmen or Skitarii just because they got the charge. ;)

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Rizzle
Kor'La
Kor'La
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#66 » Apr 03 2017 10:51

Panzer wrote:By now I'm rather sure that the free pdf factions are only temporary until GW releases more expansions (if they do). The three box factions seem to have received a lot more thinking with their additional clans/homeworlds/chapter etc.


I have the same sense. Being a Games Workshop product it is hard to read too much in to such things, but the idea of there being, say, a Shadow War: Taros and so on to expand the range is very appealing.

Here's the Da'kaara Cha'co La'rua, the team I'm planning to take to my local store campaign kick-off at the end of the week:
  • Leader - Carbine (170)
  • Pathfinder - Carbine (90)
  • Pathfinder - Carbine (90)
  • Pathfinder -Carbine (90)
  • Cadet - Carbine, Markerlight (95)
  • Cadet - Carbine, Markerlight (95)
  • Specialist - Ion Rifle (160)
  • Recon Drone (110)
  • Pulse Accelerator Drone (50)
  • Pulse Accelerator Drone (50)

I'm low on kit (grenades, pistols, reloads, markerlights etc) with the intention of picking some of those up after the first mission. I could see dropping the recon drone for another carbine 'finder and a little kit, though.
The cadets let me squeeze in an ion rifle; it's there just in case I really need to bring some punch. If the Shadow War rules force fighters to shoot at the nearest target then I'll move the markerlights off the cadets, freeing them up to be a little more suicidal as required.
I'd guess my first skills would go on the Shas'Ui and generic Pathfinders but I'm happy to let the team's story develop as it goes. That's part of the pleasure of Necromunda - losing can be as rewarding as winning, and over time a very generic team can develop into a group of characters.
Last edited by Rizzle on Apr 05 2017 10:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Panzer
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#67 » Apr 03 2017 11:01

Yeah as far as I know you have to shoot at the nearest target.
Was wondering why you'd put the Markerlights on the guys you'd care less about being save but then I read your text. :D Just put the Markerlights on your regular Pathfinder Troops so you can put those in the back and advance with the expendable Cadets.....did I just say that? I'm a bad Tau Commander. :roll:

I'm really not sure about the Ion Rifle to be honest. Getting -1 at long range (13"-24") is really annoying on a guy that has only BS3 in the first place even with Markerlight support. It however has the advantage of being able to move&shoot unlike our Rail Rifle which mutated into a Sniper with apparently no scope because it doesn't hit better >15" than Carbines would. :D


Oh and it seems your the spoiler tags in your post are broken. Can't see anything.

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Lord Mayhem
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#68 » Apr 03 2017 02:29

5-9 is almost a 50% of getting a skill... that means you'll probably get a skill more often than anything else.


Actually it works out closer to 67%; 24 chances out of 36 on a 2d6 spread.

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Panzer
Shas'Saal
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#69 » Apr 03 2017 03:00

Lord Mayhem wrote:
5-9 is almost a 50% of getting a skill... that means you'll probably get a skill more often than anything else.


Actually it works out closer to 67%; 24 chances out of 36 on a 2d6 spread.

Aye. I think he just took the 5 cases and compared it to the 12 cases...which is not how stuff like that works. But I admit I didn't bother to check either since the exact number wouldn't have changed anything in that specific case. :D

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guges
Shas'La
Shas'La
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#70 » Apr 03 2017 06:00

I actually knew the chance of rolling a 7 was a little under 20% and just guessed from there.

Suffice to say that a close to 70% chance means most of your guys will be getting skills.

I also think the Ion Rifle is a waste of points with -1 to hit at all the ranges you want to engage enemies at.

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guges
Shas'La
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#71 » Apr 03 2017 09:38

So after taking this picture, I discovered a really big flaw in the recon drones. How are you going to keep them in cover. They're massive and they're floating...

Image

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Panzer
Shas'Saal
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#72 » Apr 03 2017 10:47

I think it's best to tread the Ion Rifle as Shotgun-like weapon. Devastating at close ranged shoot but not 100% useless at long ranged shooting still. It's more of a "kick the door open and kill what's inside" ... basically the SWA version of Pulse Blaster. :D
Too bad it doesn't give +1 at short range though.


guges wrote:So after taking this picture, I discovered a really big flaw in the recon drones. How are you going to keep them in cover. They're massive and they're floating...

Image

You let it hover around corners so it's behind terrain vertically rather than horizontally. Other than that it simply won't get cover at all.
You can also make it hide until the enemy is close, jump out and unload 2d3 S5 -2 shots at whoever is the unlucky one who got send out first. :P

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