[General] General Shadow Wars Discussion Thread

Discuss every aspect of the Shadow War stand-alone game.
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guges
Shas'La
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#73 » Apr 04 2017 05:53

Yeah behind buildings will be the way to go. The height could be an advantage if it ever gets behind low buildings that give it cover. Could help it hit models on walkways and taller buildings while staying under cover.

Fokke
Shas'La
Shas'La
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#74 » Apr 04 2017 07:22

Tau have a major disadvantage vs IG(one of my other armies). I have gone over the IG list and while its pretty straight forward, it has a lot of options. Your basic non-recruit trooper is a vet guardsman for 12 melta bombs and he has WS3 and BS4. Add on carapace armor for 4 bombs and a lasgun for 5 bombs and there you go. Costly yes but unfortunately far superior to our standard pathfinder. The recruit level guy is WS3 and BS3 for ten points less. Special weapons guy is 10 points more than the normal dude with a huge list of special weapons, all of the normal guard special weapons, from sniper weapons with optional toxic rounds, to grenade launchers but you have to buy either or both ammo types, to your meltas and plasma. You also have oddballs like demo charges and a heavy flamer. Granted they start at 40 points for the lower ranking weapons to a whopping 125 for a launcher with both ammo types but the options are there. Then you can customize almost all the weapons by adding hot shot laser packs, red dot sights, telescopic scopes and the normal ammo reload.

Other options include shotguns, bolters for sgts, all the various pistols available to guard, power weapons down to a K-bar(everyone gets these for free), camo cloaks/gear(cheapest thing in the list). Sgt is extremely expensive though coming in at double the vet guardsmen's cost with not even a leadership stat increase. He does have access to sergeant only gear like bolters, power swords, and plasma pistols and has an order that lets anyone within 6" of him concentrate fire on one enemy model and re-roll 1s to hit(ranged only I think). Info from my buddy who is a TO and was given a box last week to prep for this weekend's kick off event. I need to see if my local store has a kick off event planned(thinking out loud).

So yeah, IG kind of outclasses us. I saw the pathfinder rules several days before I saw the rest of the warbands and was stoked that they were keeping this as scout class teams vs scout class teams since I knew the marines were getting scouts only as well(not counting specialists). Then the rest of the bands dropped and we now have veteran IG teams, elder exarchs and aspect warriors, and grey knights(who I still haven't figured out how they fit in). This leaves our underpowered Tau in the dust. I still plan on using a tau warband but I have my IG one as well. I haven't gotten a chance to look over the skill section in the main book yet so I am hoping we at least have an edge there. My current plans include 2 recon drones, a sniper and buddy with markerlight and a mix of other pathfinders with (big surprise) carbines.

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Panzer
Shas'Saal
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#75 » Apr 04 2017 09:16

Eh I don't see the basic Guardsmen being superior to Pathfinder even with Carapace armor considering we have Markerlight support.

Anyway, what Skillsets do AM have for their trooper available. I imagine they don't have the Stealth skillset which is seriously awesome actually.

Proceeded to copy-paste large swathes of the rules verbatim, then expressed a wish to link directly to the leak, all in contravention of our forum's rules.

Fokke
Shas'La
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#76 » Apr 04 2017 12:04

We don't know exactly how the game will play out in practice so the unit rules might not be everything especially when you put them into game context. My friend with the advance copy hasn't had a chance to do much more than a quick read through on topics he wanted to see. A terminator is going to be a stone cold female dog to take out and there are three different warbands with that option as a specialist that I can think of off hand. I need to text him and see how specialists work while I am thinking about it since the costs and how to rules aren't listed in the released PDFs. Mass fire is the traditional means of shooting them down followed by high AP weapons. Not seeing many high AP weapons in our list nor outside of mass recon drones and stealth specialists am I seeing high volume.

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Panzer
Shas'Saal
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#77 » Apr 04 2017 12:16

Oh my post got edited...guess I'll continue most of my SWA discussions on BaC and Facebook then.
A bit lame to be so harsh with rule leaks when they are all over the big forums and only hinders discussions when not everyone has the same base of knowledge without not being allowed to share that knowledge either.

Bummer, I actually like this forum but it can't be helped then I guess. Gonna make a WIP thread for my team eventually but that's it I fear. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Fokke
Shas'La
Shas'La
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#78 » Apr 04 2017 12:43

Odd since they are no longer leaks when the rules are physically out there in the public's hands at this point.

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Jefffar
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#79 » Apr 04 2017 12:53

For reasons of respecting copyright law we cannot host nor directly link to nor encourage the dissemination of copyrighted materials (ie game rules) on these forums. A few words here and there or a sentence or two is fine, but entire pages of material is not.

If someone wants to play the victim because of our respect for the law, they are free to.

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Panzer
Shas'Saal
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#80 » Apr 04 2017 01:02

Jefffar wrote:For reasons of respecting copyright law we cannot host nor directly link to nor encourage the dissemination of copyrighted materials (ie game rules) on these forums. A few words here and there or a sentence or two is fine, but entire pages of material is not.

If someone wants to play the victim because of our respect for the law, they are free to.


Oh don't worry, i'm not gonna playing the victim. Just voicing my discontent when I see how different it can be pretty much everywhere else. Not gonna expect it to change so I'll just adjust to it and have such discussions elswhere. No big deal. ;)

Oh and it wasn't an entire page of material even....just half of it. :P

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Lyi'ot
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#81 » Apr 04 2017 03:27

It's not about stopping access to leaks, Fokke. It's about doing our fiduciary duty as administrators to uphold the rules and policies of our forum, foremost of which is respecting Game Workshop's IP. I don't edit user posts lightly, nor do I want to stymie discussion. But what I cut was not some deeply thought out essay. Half a page of the rules were copy-pasted, without any accompanying discussion or analysis -- simply a "look, here are all the skills within this category!" That sort of plagiarism can't be condoned under fair use.

What could be condoned, though, is an actual discussion as to which skills Tau Pathfinders should take. That's the sort of quality posting ATT is supposed to be known for.

Jemini78
Shas'La
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#82 » Apr 04 2017 04:20

I haven't really gotten my hands on the main rule book to see how close to necromunda the game actually is, but my local store is having a launch party and possible campaign, and I am looking at fielding tau. My biggest gripe as with many people is the lack of options, especially considering if I remember in Old Necromunda, the gangs may not have started with all the gear they had access to, but could eventually gain the gear through play, such as better armor saves. I remember most gangs didn't even have armor to start, because it was pricy, nor did they start with even gear at al, not even a combat knife.

So granted we get access to armor and knives to start on everyone, but I am a bit curious why the leaders have to cost to much compared to a basic trooper when they got nothing bonus to start. Even a bumb to leadership, or extra attack could have justified the extra cost. Sure they get access to the extra skill trees, but that surely can't justify 80 points worth if they don't start at least with one skill. This is the same for many of the other factions, as the leaders get a major points bump with no real benefits other than the access to more skill trees, and maybe access to more gear.

As for the factions, I am not saying I wanted all my troops to start with the better armor, but it would be nice to have an option for it, later down the road. Same for wargear, they should have granted access to other special weapon upgrades, at least the pulse rifles, just make them more expensive, and the carbine doesn't feel like it should reflect in the game either. Even acess to the flamer, fusion guns, and plasma rifles would have been nice, because that would encourage conversions, thus making more sales since they can't use the options in normal games and many players would be given incentive to invest in more models to field those options.

So with all that being said, I will still play it and hope they fix the extra factions because it seems the 3 in the rule book that aren't for free are more developed and well thought out factions compared to the rest.

So i was thinking, what do you guys think about starting the game out with a specialist who only has a pistol to start, since the upgrades for the rail rifle and ion cannon are so expensive. The idea is to go ahead and take the extra specialist with a pistol to start so later after a few games I can just buy a specialist weapon for him later down the road, and then I have a spare weapon for him later on. My main reason was to save some points so I could get the drones to start, and since the max starting team is 10 with drones counting, by not taking the rail rifle saves me some points to spend on the drones while trying to keep the pathfinders at a minimum, of mostly just a body and carbine to start, with just the ion rifle on the first specialist. Just was wondering what you guys thought of that for a starting plan. My list includes I think 2 recruits, 2 specialist (1 with ion rifle, other with pistol), a leader, 1 recon drone, 2 pulse accelerator drones, and 2 troopers, with all having carbines except the specialist.

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guges
Shas'La
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#83 » Apr 04 2017 04:38

I think that specialist usefulness will be extremely table dependent. If your local meta has dense tables, the current special weapons are beyond useless. A very similar problem exists with Infinity with long range models running the gamut from useless to gods.

My guess will be that most tables will favor having that extra body on the table instead of a specialist weapon. 100-120 points is more expensive than a whole fully kitted Pathfinder. Just doesn't add up for using on a BS3 or even a BS4 model.

Your specialist idea is still an interesting one but give him a carbine. Costs the same keeps him further away, and that -2 armor save will really help level the playing field against marines and veteran guardsmen. I guess it doesn't cost you any points to level up a specialist since costs the same as a pathfinder.

The -2 save is really the only thing Tau has going for them as everything else is so bewilderingly mediocre.

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Panzer
Shas'Saal
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#84 » Apr 04 2017 04:59

Lyi'ot wrote:It's not about stopping access to leaks, Fokke. It's about doing our fiduciary duty as administrators to uphold the rules and policies of our forum, foremost of which is respecting Game Workshop's IP. I don't edit user posts lightly, nor do I want to stymie discussion. But what I cut was not some deeply thought out essay. Half a page of the rules were copy-pasted, without any accompanying discussion or analysis -- simply a "look, here are all the skills within this category!" That sort of plagiarism can't be condoned under fair use.

What could be condoned, though, is an actual discussion as to which skills Tau Pathfinders should take. That's the sort of quality posting ATT is supposed to be known for.

The copy&paste was obviously to give everyone the base knowledge to make such a discussion possible in the first place but eh whatever. What's done is done and I won't repeat that mistake anymore lol

Jemini78
Shas'La
Shas'La
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#85 » Apr 04 2017 05:37

would love to give the specialist a carbine, except they can't have it, which I find really stupid really, since in the normal codex entry the rail rifle or ion rifle are carbine upgrades. Sadly, for the kill teams, the specialists are only allowed specialist weapon access or a pistol, nothing extra. So the idea is to keep the specialist cheaper and then later on I have a pistol to hand out to any other new recruits or to save in my inventory for when and if I get a gun slinger down the road. Again I am not sure the rules yet on how the purchasing of new equipment and extra recruits goes as games progress. I was just thinking instead of having to buy the specialist later, I could maybe have him get a few games, and maybe see what skills he gets, and if it favors the sniper rail rifle over the ion shotgun.

I never liked having to sit still to fire, especially when the range is only 6 inches different, but since the accelerator doesn't improve the specialist weapon options at all and we don't have access to other specialized weapons like a flamer, I don't have a lot of options. It is worth noting that the specialist also has access to the agility skill line, but they don't have access to the carbines when compared to normal pathfinders. If the agility line is similar to what it was in necromunda, it can help with movement issues and saving the life of the model, so that could be useful.

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guges
Shas'La
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#86 » Apr 04 2017 05:49

Yeah that's just dumb. I would forego specialists entirely unless your meta is wide open tables.

Jemini78
Shas'La
Shas'La
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#87 » Apr 04 2017 07:05

yeah, its not so much the meta but the store lacks the dense terrain really needed for these skirmish games. That might be remedied in the future with the release of the new terrain kits, but right now, its got some terrain but far more space than I would like to see from the few games that have been played at the store this week (as I sadly have to wait till the weekend before I can finish assembling my team).

I took a relook at the team leader in comparison to the other free faction rules I can view, so we do get a leadership bump, and of course the nearly standard, leader rule of everyone can use the leadership of the leader within 12 inches for pinning checks and what not, but I still feel the tau team leader is overprice by comparison when other team leaders tend to also get bonus attacks and initiative boosts on top of leadership bump and leader rule (with the exception of necrons, as there annointed immortal is exactly the same as a normal immortal minus the leader rule). What's really sad is that the genestealer cult leader gets the leadership rule, leadership bump, extra attack, and extra iniative compared to their normal trooper, and still ends up being cheaper than our pathfinder leader who gets nothing but leadership. So I honestly feel the extra faction rules were rushed out and hopefully those extra factions get some fixxing to bring it more in line with the 3 in the main rule book.

As far as the local meta for me...it looks like so far I am going to have to deal with some tyranids, a few necron players (yeah immortals), a couple of orc players, one other tau player, a chaos player, and probably an eldar player that I know of for sure right now. I also can technically field a wych team, and I still have my painted Escher gang which I could probably field as a guard faction, and if I can get my hands on the box set, then scouts and orcs as well. I am just thrilled that the excitment for the game at the local store is good, and that I might can get my 13 yr old son into playing it since it will require less models to start and maybe get him into 40k gradually this way. I don't plan on building a tau army but if I expand out past the pathfinders to get the models needed for the special operatives, i may end up building a new tau army anyways (as it would be easier to just get the just starting box to get the ethereal and stealth suit, and i could always just use a fire warrior sergeant as the fireblade if need be).

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Paulson
Shas'Ui
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#88 » Apr 04 2017 07:22

I'm waiting to give the book a proper read through before I make any decisions about building a Tau force. They seem to be handicapped in a few areas but I don't know all of the specifics about how cover and skills work which could have a big impact on how they play.

The units appear to be following the fluff that's established about Tau combat doctrine and use of drones and crisis suits to carry all the heavy and specialized weapons. Unfortunately in this particular format that seems to bite us a bit as the specialist are in very short supply and much of the action involves close combat which Tau has never been good at.

I think it would have been good to have access to standard gun drones to help over come the low BS, being able to twin link or get more dice for shooting would have been a boon. The burst cannon is ok and fluffy for pathfinder units but it's expensive and not what I'd normally consider an iconic weapon on drones. If they wanted to add a heavy shooting drone they could have used heavy gun drones, sniper drones, or made missile drones for support. I know that they chose to keep the focus on pathfinders but having firewarriors or breachers as a heavy specialist wouldn't have been a bad idea as it'd open up the arsenal a bit.

Again I'm waiting to see how the full set of rules impacts stuff before I start making any hard judgements. There's always one faction that gets a kind of rough shake when it comes to equipment and Tau may have drawn the short straw for the format. In Mordheim the options for undead gaining experience and using equipment are severely limited, but it's generally offset by having your vampire be an absolute beast. For Tau there might be better synergy in the skill sets?

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guges
Shas'La
Shas'La
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#89 » Apr 04 2017 07:43

In the original Necromunda shooting dominated most games. Part of that was the shooting factions were a little unbalanced and a lot of close combat models were awful (Goliaths). With access to sick shooting and with scouts coming in the boxed set, I'm thinking shooting will dominate SWA as well.

Fokke
Shas'La
Shas'La
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Re: Necromunda/shadow war: tau rules

Post#90 » Apr 04 2017 07:45

Lets see, I was looking at a sgt with carbine, a regular pathfinder with carbine, recruit with carbine, dude with markerlight and carbine, a specialist with rail rifle, it is rapid fire apparently, and a pair of recon drones. I think this fits. Of course this changes with however specialists are hired and/or maintained.

Sooo wish we got gun drones....

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