Shadow War: Armageddon tactics and warband make up

Discuss every aspect of the Shadow War stand-alone game.
Jemini78
Shas'La
Posts: 28

Re: Shadow War: Armageddon tactics and warband make up

Post#11 » Apr 13 2017 03:43

yes, havign access to fire warriors and pathfinders would have made for a better list, even having our team leader essentially being a former ethereal body guard would have been nice as well, having someone starting with a BS of 4. We do sorely lack options compared to other lists, and our stats are low, especially when you compare the price of our team leader to other team leaders who tend to have way more bonus stats over their basic trooper (usually extra BS, attacks, iniative). Our only real strenght is the str 5 basic guns, which are short range, but we lack high strength weapons and we lack distance weapons which tau are usually known for. Again I feel that the lists were rushed, but yes, some armies like grey knights are a bit power ful, and harlequins excell in this game simply for the fact that their reliable armor save is an invunerable and can't be modified.

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Panzer
Shas'La
Posts: 1150

Re: Shadow War: Armageddon tactics and warband make up

Post#12 » Apr 13 2017 05:00

Most of the list feel rushed tbh. Grey Knights have a whole lot other problems. In campaigns they can't recruit new guys without spending a promethium cache and their low numbers really hurt them if they happen to get one of their team captured by the enemy.
Sure they hurt a lot due really good weaponry and psychic buffs but they shouldn't be too hard to take out with proper special weapons.
I think if I can set up the Rail Rifle guy in a good position a Grey Knight player will have some serious problems. Give him the +1 to hit upgrade and a markerlight buddy and you have hit on 3+, wound on 2+ with a high impact weapon and he only has a 6+ save left. Oh and it does d3 wounds of course so you have an actual chance to down him. If you play smart with enough LoS blocking terrain you can do the same with the Ion Rifle but of course with higher risk and only hitting on 4+ because you don't want him to be stationary.

If all else fails you still have the option to rely on Overwatch. Set up your guys so he has to move to draw LoS and shoot him down in his own turn so you can shoot at him again in your turn without having to move yourself. (Be aware that we can't use Markerlights for Overwatch though).

On a sidenote: Just noticed the way Markerlights are worded is potentially broken and should get an Errata.
Instead of firing a ranged weapon in the shooting phase, a
Tau fighter with a markerlight may instead pick an enemy
model within 30" and in line of sight. If they do so, friendly
models firing at that enemy may ignore the To Hit penalties
for cover.

RAW you have to target an enemy model only once with a Markerlight for it to never have cover for the whole game. It's not restricted to the turn you actually marked him.
RAI is clear that it's not intended to work like that and I won't play it like that myself but it's always good to know with what kind of crap WAAC player can come up with, so be careful on events and maybe talk with a judge about it before the event starts.

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Rizzle
Kor'La
Posts: 93

Re: Shadow War: Armageddon tactics and warband make up

Post#13 » Apr 13 2017 07:34

Panzer wrote:...with a high impact weapon...


Sadly High Impact is reserved for S7, so our rail rifles are no more deadly than other small arms. In an ideal world I would have enjoyed something like "on a To Wound roll of 6 treat this as a hit from a High Impact weapon" to capture the unpleasantness that a hypervelocity slug can add to your day.

As it stands I actually like the restrained internal balance of the Tau Pathfinders Kill Team. It fits in neatly between the melée-centric and other shooting lists whilst mostly being all about guns, largely thanks to Supporting Fire and the ability to block a charge by pinning them on the way in.
Access to native BS4 or a short range bonus on any main gun would have made hand-to-hand a terrible proposition for anyone other than the Harlequins and Tyranids, both of which ignore pinning from 'low impact' weapons. Pulse pistols are then a mid to late campaign option for blunting charges more effectively, markerlights soften the blow of being BS3 and the drones give utility/punch/durability as a seasoning.

It all clicks together.

Which is lovely, but many other team lists are bonkers in comparison :D

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Panzer
Shas'La
Posts: 1150

Re: Shadow War: Armageddon tactics and warband make up

Post#14 » Apr 13 2017 11:28

Rizzle wrote:
Panzer wrote:...with a high impact weapon...


Sadly High Impact is reserved for S7, so our rail rifles are no more deadly than other small arms. In an ideal world I would have enjoyed something like "on a To Wound roll of 6 treat this as a hit from a High Impact weapon" to capture the unpleasantness that a hypervelocity slug can add to your day.

Right. I forgot that the Ion Rifle got nerfed to S6 and thought the Rail Rifle got buffed to S7 instead. My bad. :D Not that high impact matters much most of the time though.

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Peregrim
Shas'La
Posts: 93

Re: Shadow War: Armageddon tactics and warband make up

Post#15 » Apr 13 2017 12:17

Calmsword wrote:ps: On reflection of this rant (sorry guys) I realize the simple solution to a lot of problems would have been to just give us access to carapace armor and initiative 3 (why it's 2 makes no sense).


Even upgrading to combat armour (like our fire warriors have) would be great -- then you wouldn't need to change anything with initiative.

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Panzer
Shas'La
Posts: 1150

Re: Shadow War: Armageddon tactics and warband make up

Post#16 » Apr 13 2017 12:34

Initiative is not so bad...just never move or stand at dangerous places. In fact just stay home. :P

Jemini78
Shas'La
Posts: 28

Re: Shadow War: Armageddon tactics and warband make up

Post#17 » Apr 13 2017 06:56

Well I just played my first game against my son and his immortals. We are definitely at a handicap with the rules. Lacking some of the miscellaneous upgrades that the 3 core rule factions get access to hurts. Not to mention, recon armor sort of stinks, we are not getting much in the way of saves at all.

A couple of fixxes I think would have helped would be allowing multiple marker lights to target the same target to give us a +1 to BS, similar to the 40k rules would be beneficial. Access to fire warriors would be nice, due to the carapace armor and pulse rifle access. The rail gun, should have been stronger, maybe have two fire modes, a more and fire mode that made it str 6, -2 save at 24 inches, and a sniper mode that makes it shoot at 36 inches, but str 7, -3 save. Also having access to breacher weapons as real nasty shot guns would have been nice as well. Camo cloaks are a must have. Telescopic sight would have been nice, as well as access to a targeting array that would give a bonus to our BS when standing still (hey our helmets have those systems anyways right) in place of the extra markerlight bonus. Also a shield drone upgrade, where any tau within 3 inches would benefit from a 4+ invunerable save. Lastly, the Carbine should be a sustained fire dice of 1, because well, it is a carbine weapon so it is suppose to fire burst shots.

Lastly, something expensive for a long term campaign, is maybe the team leader having access to a stealth suit upgrade, sure if could be like a 200 point upgrade option and not something they start with, but something they could buy later. The suit could give the stat bonus, but replaces their weapon with just a burst cannon option, or for more points on top of that, the fusion gun.

yes many of these are wishful thinking, but some of these suggestions would make us more competitive. We are not the only faction I think is lacking, but I may look at making some house rules to fix a few things. In 40k, we are a faction with ranged threat, but in SWA, we lack any real ranged threat. One of the other tau players has played 5 games and lost all of them. Against the scout army, he was brutally out ranged and taken out one by one.

As for the iniative, I don't mind that being low, we are Tau, and melee is simply not our area of expertise. If they want to give us melee options, they should have allowed us to field 0-3 kroot. Also I feel our warband size should be greater in size, 10 including the drones is small, I would settle for 10 and 3 drones, because as it stands, if our team members don't die, it wont take us long to cap out, and for example, the necron force I went against was just 5 immortals, who can cap at 10 as well. In the long haul, once they get to 10 strong, they will out power us easily while we are stuck at 10 for many rounds. Just from a math perspective, not including upgrades, 10 immortals is around 2000 points in SWA with upgrades easily anywhere from 2100-2300 points, while a 10 strong tau team is maybe at 1150-1300 points.

I know that is looking at a capped out team, but still, our odds of surviving the long term is slim. I rolled to see if my two downed players lived or died, and I would have lost one. Losing only nets me maybe one cache, possibly 2 or more, but if I spend the one cache, all I end up doing is replacing the one downed trooper who also took there armor and gun with them, so having to buy it all again each and every game could hurt.

I know my post here sounds negative, just trying to see a bright side. I really feel GW rushed out the extra factions without actual game testing or consideration to the rule books options. They got some rules, but rushed rules are just that, rushed, and some factions fare better, others not so much.

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Tael
Fio'O
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Re: Shadow War: Armageddon tactics and warband make up

Post#18 » Apr 13 2017 08:34

One interesting point to note - Tau were not out when 2nd Edition was around. So bringing them into Necromunda-esque situation required some thinking which may have been rushed or not playtested enough.

Also thanks for the additional insights beyond your WIP thread too :)

Jemini78
Shas'La
Posts: 28

Re: Shadow War: Armageddon tactics and warband make up

Post#19 » Apr 13 2017 08:54

yeah, well I am trying to contribute, add some perspective and opinions. I am trying to stay postive and stick it out with the tau. I was tempted after my first game to change factions before the campaign. It doesn't feel all that great going into a campaign with a faction that may lose every game, especially when you look at so many 3+ armor saves and Invunerables running around in other lists, or when you in good spirit helped a new to the 40k universe guy out build his scout team with the idea of having 6 scouts with a split focus, 2 guys at range, 4 guys closing ground, the 2 ranged guys being a heavy bolter and a sniper rifle (with 36-54 inch range depending on the guy), and the 4 closing being a bolter wielding scout with hellfire rounds (multiple wound goodness), a flamer (yes he is playing space wolves), and then two bolt pistol wielding scouts to protect the flamer from melee. I feel like I created the army to out range me and put a nail in my own coffin, but I was just helping a new players build his list before he assembled his models.

I keep trying to see our potential but its hard after that first game. I will keep at it, losing for the greater good, dieing for the greater good, and trying to take down those who oppose the greater good all while trying to see the greater good in the list we are given. I will offer more feedback as I play more armies. Trying to see what works, where we failed at, and how brutal a comparison our list is to theirs. If anything I know the campaign will have a good mix of factions, so just about every one is covered.

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Tael
Fio'O
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Re: Shadow War: Armageddon tactics and warband make up

Post#20 » Apr 13 2017 09:04

Look forward to it - all helpful for presenting a quality case should we petition a 2.0

having 6 scouts with a split focus, 2 guys at range, 4 guys closing ground, the 2 ranged guys being a heavy bolter and a sniper rifle (with 36-54 inch range depending on the guy), and the 4 closing being a bolter wielding scout with hellfire rounds (multiple wound goodness), a flamer (yes he is playing space wolves), and then two bolt pistol wielding scouts to protect the flamer from melee. I feel like I created the army to out range me and put a nail in my own coffin..

Mmmm.. yeah, more optioned out than ever. That is disheartening. Rather stark contrast considering.

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