[WIP] Unclear Picture, Intention To Reverse Team

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Tael
Fio'O
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Re: [WIP] Unclear Picture, Intention To Reverse Team

Post#11 » Apr 15 2017 10:37

So now I have a W2, just as the Fio intended.

Yess..yesss my pretty. Muhaha ahem..

Interesting observations - the hidden idea especially, essentially choosing when to engage.

As for hurting Elite lists, you mean that suddenly having seven tau running around with simple upgrades could be slight overkill?

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Rizzle
Kor'La
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Re: [WIP] Unclear Picture, Intention To Reverse Team

Post#12 » Apr 15 2017 02:27

Tael wrote:As for hurting Elite lists, you mean that suddenly having seven tau running around with simple upgrades could be slight overkill?


Pretty much! It all boils down to the pulse carbine having a stat line at the level of a 'light' Special Weapon.

Lets say you add some conditional but readily available access to BS4 to the list and do a little back-of-the-envelope calculation. We'll take a solitary pulse accelerator drone to counter camo cloaks, and assume one of the gang is using a markerlight perhaps with photo-visors to taste. After a little tense (and hopefully exciting!) infiltration work, scampering from cover to cover and hiding where possible, we have 7-8 shots, making ~5 hits, ~4 wounds, 3-4 injury rolls.

Broadly speaking, those numbers would hold for anything from a guardsman in flak armour right up to power armour - basically, everyone who isn't a Harlequin. This is a relatively fair-to-poor volume of fire against larger teams but against the elite that's truly punishing.

Now, Scouts have easy/conditional access to BS5 from either close range boltguns or red dot sights (or, of course, both!). This is tempered some what in the early to mid campaign by their smaller numbers. If they bring a bigger gun they can be as few as 5, if they bring fewer toys they might start at 6-7.

This is why I reckon the designers were reserved with Tau. Push them too hard and they could easily dominate. Take away the power of the pulse weaponry and they don't "feel" like Tau. I'll share my thoughts on small changes in a separate thread as they don't quite belong in discourse of Shadow War proper.

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Panzer
Shas'La
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Re: [WIP] Unclear Picture, Intention To Reverse Team

Post#13 » Apr 15 2017 05:41

Rizzle wrote:
Tael wrote:As for hurting Elite lists, you mean that suddenly having seven tau running around with simple upgrades could be slight overkill?


Pretty much! It all boils down to the pulse carbine having a stat line at the level of a 'light' Special Weapon.

Lets say you add some conditional but readily available access to BS4 to the list and do a little back-of-the-envelope calculation. We'll take a solitary pulse accelerator drone to counter camo cloaks, and assume one of the gang is using a markerlight perhaps with photo-visors to taste. After a little tense (and hopefully exciting!) infiltration work, scampering from cover to cover and hiding where possible, we have 7-8 shots, making ~5 hits, ~4 wounds, 3-4 injury rolls.

Broadly speaking, those numbers would hold for anything from a guardsman in flak armour right up to power armour - basically, everyone who isn't a Harlequin. This is a relatively fair-to-poor volume of fire against larger teams but against the elite that's truly punishing.

Now, Scouts have easy/conditional access to BS5 from either close range boltguns or red dot sights (or, of course, both!). This is tempered some what in the early to mid campaign by their smaller numbers. If they bring a bigger gun they can be as few as 5, if they bring fewer toys they might start at 6-7.

This is why I reckon the designers were reserved with Tau. Push them too hard and they could easily dominate. Take away the power of the pulse weaponry and they don't "feel" like Tau. I'll share my thoughts on small changes in a separate thread as they don't quite belong in discourse of Shadow War proper.

Your math is a bit off though. Photo-Visor reduces cover by 1, so even if you ignore the complete cover via Markerlight (which is kinda redundant) you'd still hit only 50% of your shots. So if you have 7-8 shots it would be 3.5-4 hits, 2-2.5 wounds, etc. ;)

Also yes Pulse Carbines ARE devastating. The problem we have though is getting in range and if we are in range to hit. Markerlights are great and everythng but ultimately it's the same thing as having BS5 vs targets in hard cover or BS4 vs targets in soft cover and nothing against targets who aren't even in cover. While natural BS5/4 would also work against running modificators etc.
So we'd always be at a disadvantage against shooty lists who can push their team to BS4/5 as easily as AM/SM/CSM while having more range than we do. Even with a Pulse Accelerator Drone they just need to buy a cheap 5p Camo gear to outrange us again with their basic weapons. Especially against Marines our Carbines aren't more killy than their Bolter in a vs scenario and while AM weapons aren't as deadly they can just pin us for days with their numbers.

I never doubted Carbines are strong, the problem is delivering them.

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Rizzle
Kor'La
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Re: [WIP] Unclear Picture, Intention To Reverse Team

Post#14 » Apr 15 2017 06:00

Panzer wrote:Your math is a bit off though. Photo-Visor reduces cover by 1, so even if you ignore the complete cover via Markerlight (which is kinda redundant) you'd still hit only 50% of your shots. So if you have 7-8 shots it would be 3.5-4 hits, 2-2.5 wounds, etc. ;)


Apologies if this wasn't clear. I meant that I was assuming we could obtain BS4 conditionally and arguing that adding this to the current Pathfinder Kill Team would make it perilously close to a hard counter to (non-Harlequin) elite armies. I am assuming that elite implies low body count, but by the late campaign a well developed team wouldn't fear this theoretical BS4 Pathfinder team overly much.
One Pathfinder allocated to markerlighting (plus some number of photo-visors) covers hitting one target cleanly (plus being able to hit others without using a full fighter's shooting just for marker support). Call it a 'median fair case' for an idealised battlefield :smile:

I fully agree with you that the more troubling element is range, with a slice of range+survivability thrown in.Pulse Accelerator Drones costing a whole warm body against the limit of 10 stings in the context of camo cloaks.

I'm neatening up my proposed tweaks for a friendly campaign to bring them to a suitable standard for the Experimental Rules Forum, but here's one idea as a preview: What if markerlights negated the benefit of camo gear, in addition to their usual effect?
It's a costly way to ignore a cheap upgrade, and it's an upgrade that disproportionately hurts Pathfinders - they are the midrange shooty list, with a single long range weapon and no extreme range weapons.

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Panzer
Shas'La
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Re: [WIP] Unclear Picture, Intention To Reverse Team

Post#15 » Apr 16 2017 02:58

Rizzle wrote:
Panzer wrote:Your math is a bit off though. Photo-Visor reduces cover by 1, so even if you ignore the complete cover via Markerlight (which is kinda redundant) you'd still hit only 50% of your shots. So if you have 7-8 shots it would be 3.5-4 hits, 2-2.5 wounds, etc. ;)


Apologies if this wasn't clear. I meant that I was assuming we could obtain BS4 conditionally and arguing that adding this to the current Pathfinder Kill Team would make it perilously close to a hard counter to (non-Harlequin) elite armies. I am assuming that elite implies low body count, but by the late campaign a well developed team wouldn't fear this theoretical BS4 Pathfinder team overly much.
One Pathfinder allocated to markerlighting (plus some number of photo-visors) covers hitting one target cleanly (plus being able to hit others without using a full fighter's shooting just for marker support). Call it a 'median fair case' for an idealised battlefield :smile:

I fully agree with you that the more troubling element is range, with a slice of range+survivability thrown in.Pulse Accelerator Drones costing a whole warm body against the limit of 10 stings in the context of camo cloaks.

I'm neatening up my proposed tweaks for a friendly campaign to bring them to a suitable standard for the Experimental Rules Forum, but here's one idea as a preview: What if markerlights negated the benefit of camo gear, in addition to their usual effect?
It's a costly way to ignore a cheap upgrade, and it's an upgrade that disproportionately hurts Pathfinders - they are the midrange shooty list, with a single long range weapon and no extreme range weapons.


I see. My bad. :D

Dunno. I think I'd just give Pathfinders access to Pulse Rifles and Combat Armor. Change the Carbine profile so you get +1 to hit at short range and maybe the Pulse Rifle -1 at short range so both have their place in a team, re-name Pathfinder to Fire Caste Warrior so it can represent both, Strike Teams and Pathfinder.
That's all I'd change tbh. I'd love seeing Sustained Fire on Carbines but I think that might be a bit much for a basic weapon with S5 Mod -2.

For some additional flavor maybe add Pulse Blaster for VERY short range very deadly shooting, but I think the Ion Rifle kinda covers that already.

Another Idea would be to give the Carbine some kind of grenade launcher profile. The fluff says Pathfinder shoot Photon grenades at their target with their Carbines to shoot them down easier. So maybe giving Photon grenades a large blast profile that does no damage (but getting hit means getting pinned) and the Carbine the ability to shoot those grenades at 18" instead of shooting regularly. For some upgrade cost of course.

The Pulse Blaster and the Carbine/Grenade Launcher are two things that would be fluffy and kinda helpful but definitely not needed though imo. Just to give us some more options.

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Rizzle
Kor'La
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Re: [WIP] Unclear Picture, Intention To Reverse Team

Post#16 » Apr 17 2017 05:22

Progress has been stalled somewhat over the Easter weekend. My new goal is to get the team fully cleaned up and based ready for Wednesday evening games.

I really struggled to pick out individuals via the unique helmet markings so I've added a base 4 tally mark to their rear armour plate. I'm aiming for something subtle enough to not look 'functional' whilst still clear enough to read whilst on the table.

Image

From left to right I have Shas'Ui Driftstalker, Specialist Thumper, All Day, Double Down, Quickstep, Cadet Six and Cadet Seven.

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And with Cadet Seven finished.

I've stripped the unique helmet markings of and am experimenting with a squad mark:

Image

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Tael
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Re: [WIP] Unclear Picture, Intention To Reverse Team

Post#17 » Apr 17 2017 08:13

Hey that's a clever idea - liking the reverse chest marking for unique members and the helm having overall unit marking.

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Rizzle
Kor'La
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Re: [WIP] Unclear Picture, Intention To Reverse Team

Post#18 » May 17 2017 04:29

Righto!

After a jolly little break I've finally found time to photograph the completed team. Or rather, the team so far, as I now need another few models in the same style to fill out to 10+3 :D

First, the canny Por'vre directing the session arranged for some 'action' shots.
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Looks like the team forgot to shake the snow of their boots...

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This marks my first unit painted after a long break from the hobby. I'd be very interested in any comments or criticism as I am thinking of using this style across all my infantry. It's relatively quick to paint and has a 'cartoonish' look that appeals to me.

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