New Barracuda is HERE!

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shasocastris
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Re: New Barracuda is HERE!

Post#19 » Jul 22 2016 08:39

boomwolf wrote:Utility:
LBBC can be upgraded to CIBs for 5 points each (I highly question the value here, the CIBS are worth more than 5 over BC on suits, but over a LBBC? not sure its even an upgrade any more. CIB is indeed identical or superior against all but T5 or lower targets that do not have a 4+ save, but the range difference exists, and the CIB's advantage is never big)


A solid assessment overall. The one thing I will point out is that the Str 7 of the CIB is pretty huge when one considers that they are auto targeting. It might not be that useful against space marine bikes, but against flyers, having firepower that ignores jink and can do decent damage to AV 12 is very helpful in an era where AV 12 flyers are not that uncommon (stormraven, valkyrie, etc).

I think this is a pretty solid deal and look forward to testing one out in the future.

Cheers!

[edit] I just noticed a con: Strike flyers can't perform break turns, which is the ability to test on Agility to make an extra turn. Sadness.

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boomwolf
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Re: New Barracuda is HERE!

Post#20 » Jul 22 2016 09:41

I won't deny that the strength advantage on auto-targeting guns is valuable, even at the cost of half as many shots-its the fact you lose half the operation range when you use it that bothers me.


People that have the classic 'Cuda, do input how well did the short range burst cannons preform. did you find it easy or problamatic to get the shots?




Also-interesting note.
The Orca is NOT on the update file.
I emailed forgeworld about it. they responded the following:
"Thanks for the email, the tau orca has been left off of the rules PDF for a specific reason as we have not sold this kit for a good number of years and also the rules would not interact with the unit very well at all. The tau Orca has not been part of the forge world range for quite some time now.

We have been told by our studio it is unlikely to have any rules updates again in the future. At least for the foreseeable future.

Thanks again for the email"

No hope for a new Orca then...this makes me sad.

Anyone that actually owns one is willing to turn to them and ask for updated rules?

Slight spelling correction
>>--AA-->

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shasocastris
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Re: New Barracuda is HERE!

Post#21 » Jul 22 2016 09:58

boomwolf wrote:I won't deny that the strength advantage on auto-targeting guns is valuable, even at the cost of half as many shots-its the fact you lose half the operation range when you use it that bothers me.

People that have the classic 'Cuda, do input how well did the short range burst cannons preform. did you find it easy or problamatic to get the shots?


Fair point. I've not used the Barracuda all that often so I can't speak to the short range of the secondary guns.

Another question I have is, has anybody seen an indication that these can be taken as a flyer wing? They have the extra rules for it and flyer wings are referenced in the new combat roles, but the PDF of the AX-5-2 doesn't give the option to become a fighter wing. Which is upsetting given that taking just two craft in a wing greatly increases what they can do.

Perhaps in the new IA book?

Cheers!

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boomwolf
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Re: New Barracuda is HERE!

Post#22 » Jul 22 2016 10:06

You can form a wing out of any jet wihtout any special rules for it, they just have to all be part of the same detachment/formation. (correct me if I'm wrong)
Some formations exist for specific wings, but in general, you can form a wing even within a CAD.

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Agentarrow
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Re: New Barracuda is HERE!

Post#23 » Jul 22 2016 10:22

Have the other Forge World combo sets come with any kind of bonus? It seems weird to me that they would sell a single fighter and a fighter pair for no discount unless the pair comes with a formation card or something. I've only ever bought single sets before though, so I have no idea if that's something they do.

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Tearphoenix
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Re: New Barracuda is HERE!

Post#24 » Jul 22 2016 10:23

boomwolf wrote:Also-interesting note.
The Orca is NOT on the update file.
I emailed forgeworld about it. they responded the following:
"Thanks for the email, the tau orca has been left off of the rules PDF for a specific reason as we have not sold this kit for a good number of years and also the rules would not interact with the unit very well at all. The tau Orca has not been part of the forge world range for quite some time now.

We have been told by our studio it is unlikely to have any rules updates again in the future. At least for the foreseeable future.

Thanks again for the email"

No hope for a new Orca then...this makes me sad.

Anyone that actually owns one is willing to turn to them and ask for updated rules?



It might be worth emailing them even if you don't own one. I have been saving to track down one secondhand or scratchbuild one. Maybe if they receive enough response they'd at entertain the idea of reconsidering.



EDIT:
Just heard back from Forgeworld. Mostly a copy/paste of what Boomwolf received, but they added this:
"I will forward your email to the studio as another email showing interest for the rules. If we get enough email they may look at adding the orca in the rules."

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shasocastris
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Re: New Barracuda is HERE!

Post#25 » Jul 22 2016 10:48

boomwolf wrote:You can form a wing out of any jet wihtout any special rules for it, they just have to all be part of the same detachment/formation. (correct me if I'm wrong)
Some formations exist for specific wings, but in general, you can form a wing even within a CAD.


I'm pretty sure that the flyer has to have the option. For example the Necron Deathshroud now has the rule:
"Options
May be upgraded to a Flyer Wing with up to two additional Night Shrouds for 225 points per model."

This is the same thing that all the flyers in Death from the Skies have as well, the explicit option to buy more than one to become a flyer wing (which is its own detachment, independent of a CAD). As far as I can tell, there is no such rule in the pdf for the AX-5-2.

If there is something in Death from the Skies that allows you to just take multiple flyers as a wing, awesome, but I don't think there is. It has all been bound up with the option in each unit's entry.

I've sent an email to FW asking for clarification. Hopefully they'll get back to me soon.

Cheers!

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Re: New Barracuda is HERE!

Post#26 » Jul 22 2016 11:08

Tearphoenix wrote:
boomwolf wrote:Also-interesting note.
The Orca is NOT on the update file.
I emailed forgeworld about it. they responded the following:
"Thanks for the email, the tau orca has been left off of the rules PDF for a specific reason as we have not sold this kit for a good number of years and also the rules would not interact with the unit very well at all. The tau Orca has not been part of the forge world range for quite some time now.

We have been told by our studio it is unlikely to have any rules updates again in the future. At least for the foreseeable future.

Thanks again for the email"

No hope for a new Orca then...this makes me sad.

Anyone that actually owns one is willing to turn to them and ask for updated rules?



It might be worth emailing them even if you don't own one. I have been saving to track down one secondhand or scratchbuild one. Maybe if they receive enough response they'd at entertain the idea of reconsidering.


Except it will fail again and nobody would by if they do it over the top with extravagant moving parts and interior like they did last time (and they would do it)
For the same reason I expect the 'cuda to fail. its fabulous, but too expensive to justify.

Well, did Email them. but I don't expect much considering the previous response.


shasocastris wrote:
boomwolf wrote:You can form a wing out of any jet wihtout any special rules for it, they just have to all be part of the same detachment/formation. (correct me if I'm wrong)
Some formations exist for specific wings, but in general, you can form a wing even within a CAD.


I'm pretty sure that the flyer has to have the option. For example the Necron Deathshroud now has the rule:
"Options
May be upgraded to a Flyer Wing with up to two additional Night Shrouds for 225 points per model."

This is the same thing that all the flyers in Death from the Skies have as well, the explicit option to buy more than one to become a flyer wing (which is its own detachment, independent of a CAD). As far as I can tell, there is no such rule in the pdf for the AX-5-2.

If there is something in Death from the Skies that allows you to just take multiple flyers as a wing, awesome, but I don't think there is. It has all been bound up with the option in each unit's entry.

I've sent an email to FW asking for clarification. Hopefully they'll get back to me soon.

Cheers!


As far I could see, the flyer wing rules in DFTS do not require at any point anything beyond that all flyers would be part of the same detachment/formation. They don't even have to be the same flyer, or the same combat role. (or same faction if an imaginary formation/detachment has units from multiple factions)

That upgrade the DFTS unit profile has, as far I can tell, only matter for the fact it allows to put an entire wing in a single FOC slot, rather than dedicating a slot for each.


If there is anyone with a physical copy around to clarify the matter, it would be nice.

mothyy
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Re: New Barracuda is HERE!

Post#27 » Jul 22 2016 02:57

Has anyone else noticed that in the description it says that it can have Long-Barrelled cyclic ion blasters, but in the rules PDF it only says normal cyclic ion blasters? Is it just a typo in the description?

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boomwolf
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Re: New Barracuda is HERE!

Post#28 » Jul 22 2016 04:04

It does not have long-barrelled cyclic ion blasters. read again, its auto-targeting cyclic ion blasters.
The auto-targeting rule is in the file.

pilky
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Re: New Barracuda is HERE!

Post#29 » Jul 22 2016 04:24

The CIB aren't Long Barrelled in the rules but they are in both the building instructions and on the store description. Makes me wonder if the new IA book will see a tweak to this to introduce the Long Barrelled CIB

mothyy
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Re: New Barracuda is HERE!

Post#30 » Jul 22 2016 05:09

boomwolf wrote:It does not have long-barrelled cyclic ion blasters. read again, its auto-targeting cyclic ion blasters.
The auto-targeting rule is in the file.


Yes, it says cyclic ion blasters in the rules PDF, but Long-barrelled cyclic ion blasters on the store description.

Dal'yth Shas'len'ra
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Re: New Barracuda is HERE!

Post#31 » Jul 22 2016 05:57

I wasn't planning on getting one of these despite how cool I thought the model looked, but with those rules, wow...

Cyclic ion blasters that ignore jink saves, say good-bye to your flyers and skimmers, if they let it get that close. For that amount of points it will probably knock hammerheads out of the CAD(for some people at least) since it can take a short range rail-gun, and it would end up costing about as much as a HH with Longstrike. Still not sure if I'm going to get one, ~$105 U.S. dollars is not a low price and I have a backlog on models to paint.

An Ion load-out could probably be very threatening to most flyers/FMC's no cover from the Ion Blasters, so 4+ save FMC's are in trouble, and almost all flyers, the Cannon would force better armored FMC's to jink. Then there's still the twin-linked missile pod, I can't see many flyers surviving that.

Edit: Does the Agile flyer rule allow a 2+ Jink with a disruption pod? So if the Agile flyer rule increases the jink to a 3+ does a disruption pod then increase it to a 2+, or a soon as the save goes to 2+ does the Agile flyer rule stop providing its benefit, thus making it a 3+ again?

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Re: New Barracuda is HERE!

Post#32 » Jul 22 2016 07:42

I guess it depends on which order you apply the saves, if it has Dpod applied first, jink then +1 to maximum of 3+ then it wouldn't be allowed as it would be 3+ and agile so still 3+ but if you said it has jink with agile so 3+ then the effects of the Dpod Come in then yes it could be 2+...

definitely a conundrum, anyone else got any ideas?
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shasocastris
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Re: New Barracuda is HERE!

Post#33 » Jul 22 2016 10:55

Quartz wrote:I guess it depends on which order you apply the saves, if it has Dpod applied first, jink then +1 to maximum of 3+ then it wouldn't be allowed as it would be 3+ and agile so still 3+ but if you said it has jink with agile so 3+ then the effects of the Dpod Come in then yes it could be 2+...

definitely a conundrum, anyone else got any ideas?


Well, ordering questions are determined by whose turn it is, soo.... Since we tend to jink in the opponent's phase, they get to determine what is applied first.

Cheers!

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boomwolf
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Re: New Barracuda is HERE!

Post#34 » Jul 23 2016 02:17

Quartz wrote:I guess it depends on which order you apply the saves, if it has Dpod applied first, jink then +1 to maximum of 3+ then it wouldn't be allowed as it would be 3+ and agile so still 3+ but if you said it has jink with agile so 3+ then the effects of the Dpod Come in then yes it could be 2+...

definitely a conundrum, anyone else got any ideas?



No conundrum. it won't get you to a 2+

Agile says it works up to a 3+, therefor if the total result is more than a 3+, agile ceases to function. there is no "order" to saves.

Same deal with Mark of Tzeentch. nothing new.

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Kael'yn
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Re: New Barracuda is HERE!

Post#35 » Jul 23 2016 03:59

After running some math:

CIB vs LBBC:
- CIB are better against AV11 / T7 or better.
- Equality against AV10 / T6 (average 1HP / 0.44 wound)
- LBBC are better in other cases (against anything that allows saves for both).
The greater range of LBBC helps it to be better but CIB are the way to go if you plan using the Cuda against vehicles.

Main weapon:
Vehicles
-HBC is better against AV10-11 over Ion (2.00 HP vs 1.33 HP and 1.33 HP vs 1.00 HP). Railgun is behind (0.67 HP in both case).
-Equality on AV12 for HBC and Ion (average 0.67 HP). Railgun is a little behind (0.56 HP)
-Railgun is better on AV13 than Ion (avg 0.44 HP vs 0.33 HP), HBC useless.
-HBC does not deal a lot of penetrating hits and potential damages, unlike Railgun and Ion
Against FMC (T6/3+):
- The Ion is twice better than HBC (avg 1.33 W vs 0.67 W), Railgun is third (0.56 W).
- With cover or invulnerable saves on FMC, HBC and Ion are equal at a 4+ save, HBC is better with a 3+ or better save, but not by a great number (0.67 W vs 0.44 W).
So my choice would be the Ion on most cases, because even if it deals less HP on low AV, the secondary damages can weaken the target too. And against FMC, the shooting results are better. The longest range is only a bonus here.

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nic
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Re: New Barracuda is HERE!

Post#36 » Jul 23 2016 04:39

So we have a really good flyer on our hands. (OK, actually we have 3 as the original Barracuda is still good as is the Remora)

It can take Vehicle Battle Systems and I think some of them are worth a look. Some are useless on the new Barracuda so lets get those out of the way:
Sensor Spines
Flechette Discharger
Disruption Pod. This last one gets left on the shelf because of the combined effects of the Dispersion Shield and Agile Flyer rule - it will almost never provide any bonus (OK, when jinking against shooting with an Auspex or equivalent it does).

The ones that might be some use:
Advanced Targeting System - none of the weapon loads make it an ideal sniper platform but the sheer volume of fire means that Precision Hits will happen. A bit pricey for what you get in my opinion.

Blacksun Filter - night fighting is most common on the turn when your flyer is sitting in reserve. Even so at that cost its a steal if you have a point spare

Decoy Launchers - Cheap enough yet will rarely be useful except when facing other Tau. If I have the points sitting around unused then maybe.

Point Defence Targeting Relay - if you are taking LBBC then this might be worth the points. It only takes one failed armour save for this to make its points back.

Automated Repair System - no single weapon on this airframe is really that critical. I would skip it.

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