8th edition crisis suits

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
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Panzer
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Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#73 » Jun 12 2017 10:47

Plasma is still good on Crisis. At least in Rapid Fire range.
Vespid are an alternative choice but those two units are very different on the table even though their damage output is similar. Sure Vespid are cheap and you could easily bring a way bigger unit instead of a small unit of Plasma Crisis, but sometimes it's durability you want. T5 W3 3+ armor and Drones are not to underestimate.
I suggest playing both units several games and see for yourself what works better with your playstyle and the rest of your list.

DaDitka
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Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#74 » Jun 13 2017 01:08

Hi all,

My experience thus far suggests strongly that we should leave the burst cannon str 5 shots to the stealh suits, gun drones, and fire warriors while crisis suits specialize on other targets.

Some suit configs I have been liking so far:

1. Max Fusion Blaster
- these suits output insane damage against multiwound models and vehicles. I have found they deal so much dmg you don't even need to get in melts range. Just manta strike it at 18" and blast away. Looking at point costs for this, I don't like full min size crisis teams for this role as they only land about as many FB hits as a sole commander, but the commander is much cheaper. So I like running him as a commander with 4 FBs and then having a stealth suit and tac drone team infiltrate near his target so they can get closer to the enemy, draw their fire/make the commander untargetable, and put the hurt on pursuing infantry.

2. missile pod max
- again, mostly best on a commander to take advantage of bs 2+. The cost of a MP is the same on a commander or crisis but you get more hits per point when they are on a commander. This config on a commander also has benefit of real long range so he is usually untargetable. With the right targets prioritization MPs tear up light vehicles (rhino, trukk) and other things below t8, which are the natural prey of the FB commander.

3. 2 MP and 1 flamer on team of 3 suits
- I think of this as a good generalist load out for a flexible unit to deepstrike in as needed as the battle develops. Their missile pods ensure they can threaten everything and have good range, while the flamer each carries means they can put the hurt on infantry or horde units as they push on to the offensive to clear points, or force some tough decisions on to opposing assault units as they approach our gunline. Even once they get their charge off and face the flamer overwatch, they are usually then in juicy range of the rest of your line while the suits jump out to 8 inches to flame on and mp shoot something else across the board. Being able to flame a near threat while blasting stuff across the map is very powerful. The flamer also mitigates their painfully average 4+ bs somewhat.

4. 2 cyclic ion blaster + ats
- this loadout is the anti-elite/anti-heavy infantry load out. I like this load out less than the others, but if you expect your opponent to spam teq or other heavy infantry, it can be a good option. Less range than missile pods but better shot output and AP (with ats) for gunning down termies. Can also overcharge for when it needs to try and takedown light vehicles and monstrous creatures.

Let me know if this is consistent with your experience or if there are sweet combinations I am missing (I haven't tried 2 cib + flamer yet).

P.s. I don't think the ats is worth it on anything other than the CIB really, although an argument can be made for MPs + ATS for heavy infsntry and mc hunting (although j would rather just have more shots).

P.p.s. Airbursting frag projector is just trash

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Atzilla
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Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#75 » Jun 13 2017 02:04

DaDitka wrote:Some suit configs I have been liking so far:

1. Max Fusion Blaster

2. missile pod max

3. 2 MP and 1 flamer on team of 3 suits

4. 2 cyclic ion blaster + ats

P.p.s. Airbursting frag projector is just trash


These weapons are what we will see in play.

I'dd add quad MP Commander to the list, because this fits his buff ability and him hiding in troops.

Personally I have a hard time getting out of the "range is everything" mindset. Especially with loss of JSJ.
But I start to like the CiB/FB as well.

Some food for thought.
As has been said, triple weapon > duo weapon + ATS.
But only (as has been stated countless times in the mathhammer thread) on offense.

On defense, lower points is more effektive.
Now that leeds me to think, we shouldn't dismiss the shield generator.

What scares me most about deepstriking crisis, is the enemy boltering my drones and removing crisis with lascannons.

So how about that:

Crisis 2x 2 FB + SG
Crisis 1x 2 FB + DC
6 Gun Drones
321 Points

Deepstrike, Crisis blast tanks, drones dakka infantry, and will really be a pain to remove afterwards

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Heldericht
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Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#76 » Jun 15 2017 12:15

Atzilla wrote:So how about that:

Crisis 2x 2 FB + SG
Crisis 1x 2 FB + DC
6 Gun Drones
321 Points

Deepstrike, Crisis blast tanks, drones dakka infantry, and will really be a pain to remove afterwards


I think putting fusion blasters on Crisis suits is a waste. So out of your 6 Fusion shots, you'll hit 3. You'll wound 1.5.

A knight will save .5 of those with invuln. 1 will go through.

You just did an average of 3 damage to a knight for 300+ points... It's not much better against vehicles.

Give crisis suits flamers or volume of shots. Leave the Fusions to commanders always.

konradkurze202
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Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#77 » Jun 15 2017 01:26

The changes to Marker's this edition have really altered the Tau playstyle. Our guys have always been baseline BS 4+, but that was easily overcome with just 2-3 marker hits per squad. Now the best a crisis suit will ever be is BS 3+ w/ reroll 1s, and that requires 5 MLs. Given how prevalent MSU units seem to be this edition I can't really see having enough Markerlight Units to reliably get 5 MLs on 2-3 different 5-man squads to be able to properly counter our awful shooting ability (somewhat ironic, given Tau are *the* shooting army).

Given all that I'm thinking Commanders and Tanks are some of the best and most reliable shooting we've got. Crisis squads (unless you go super aggressive Flamer Suits) just require too much help to perform well. It's sad because I absolutely love Crisis Suits (they are pretty much the reason I started collecting Tau), but until we get our Codex (and who knows when that is) that hopefully fixes some of these ML changes (like maybe offering a few different ML tables to pick from, some offering better shooting rewards than the current table) I think the 100% suit lists of the past are not going to be competitive anymore :(

knute
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Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#78 » Jun 15 2017 02:29

I think the overlooked super secret tech of T'au is the humble Velocity Tracker. First, it's great in the mirror match because every vehicle has Fly, every suit except the Stormsurge has Fly, and Vespids have Fly. Second, it's great against other Fly heavy armies, like the Eldar range (particularly Dark Eldar) and certain Nid lists. Finally, it's situationally useful against IoM factions running flyers, like Guard with Vendettas, Marines with speeders and flyers, etc. It's reasonably costed on our big suits (10 points) but super cheap on our small suits (2 points).

I'm inclined to run them on stealth suits and missile / CIB crisis squads and make them into crypto-anti-air squads.

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Vector Strike
Shas'La
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Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#79 » Jun 15 2017 02:55

knute wrote: Finally, it's situationally useful against IoM factions running flyers, like Guard with Vendettas, Marines with speeders and flyers, etc. It's reasonably costed on our big suits (10 points) but super cheap on our small suits (2 points).

I'm inclined to run them on stealth suits and missile / CIB crisis squads and make them into crypto-anti-air squads.


Jump Pack units have fly too. Necrons and Marines have a number of Fly models

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Panzer
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Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#80 » Jun 15 2017 03:13

The question though is...is it worth it to take the Velocity Tracker over a third weapon just because some army could maybe have some units with the <Fly> keyword in it?
I doubt it. Sure it's cheap but if the opponent has only one unit it works against then it's definitely a wasted slot.
I'd say unless you know you play against a <Fly> heavy opponent, treat it as in 7th....as an upgrade for a dedicated anti-air unit.
Like HRR Broadside with its huge range and high strength and AP weapon could really benefit from the +1 to-hit against units with the airbourne special rule and he doesn't really need one of the other systems that badly.
Then again, you could of course just let a quad Fusion Commander drop in near such a unit and blast it away with 4 shots on 3+ as always. It's the best unit with burst damage we have currently after all. :P

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Vector Strike
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Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#81 » Jun 15 2017 03:25

Panzer wrote:The question though is...is it worth it to take the Velocity Tracker over a third weapon just because some army could maybe have some units with the <Fly> keyword in it?
I doubt it. Sure it's cheap but if the opponent has only one unit it works against then it's definitely a wasted slot.
I'd say unless you know you play against a <Fly> heavy opponent, treat it as in 7th....as an upgrade for a dedicated anti-air unit.
Like HRR Broadside with its huge range and high strength and AP weapon could really benefit from the +1 to-hit against units with the airbourne special rule and he doesn't really need one of the other systems that badly.
Then again, you could of course just let a quad Fusion Commander drop in near such a unit and blast it away with 4 shots on 3+ as always. It's the best unit with burst damage we have currently after all. :P


Depends on your meta. In mine, there are DE, Dark Angels and Necrons players. These armies have lots of Fly stuff, so I might get some mileage from Velocity Tracker.
There's also Marines/Chaos, which also like to use Jump Packs and/or flyers

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Panzer
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Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#82 » Jun 15 2017 03:31

Yeah of course. But I'd say in a pretty balanced local meta it will be mostly a subpar choice if you could just take a third weapon for it.

It's like with ATS. If your local meta consists of only 2+ armor units it's actually worth it to take it on BC and Flamer units. But mostly it's not. ^^

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Heldericht
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Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#83 » Jun 15 2017 04:32

Dark Eldar and Harlequins are going to be quite prevalent with their cheap and effective transports and vehicles. Aside from other tau etc. Maybe VT will be worth it?

But yeah pretty much situational based on meta. Extra wep would be the safer bet most likely.

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Trevak Dal
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Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#84 » Jun 15 2017 06:34

Panzer wrote:
relasine wrote:
Panzer wrote:Another advantage is that Flamer completely ignore any to-hit modifier while it could happen very quickly for Burst Cannons to only hit on 5+.

Yeah, the more I discuss Burst Cannons over Flamers, the more I find I'm talking myself out of them. I just don't know how effective Flamers will be since delivery is an issue.

I definitely plan to use them in combination with a Homing Beacon. After that with their 8" <Fly> move and the option to advance since Flamer are Assault weapons it shouldn't be a real problem to deliver them.


Hmm. The real question is if we can shoot with the flamers, charge (or get charged) weather the storm of attacks, maybe get a few licks in too, hop out in our next turn, shoot them again and then charge again, though I think Fly only allows us to shoot with no penalty, not go all XV9 on them.

Huh I wonder if xv9s will be t6?
Trophies for the Hunter's den.

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Panzer
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Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#85 » Jun 16 2017 05:37

Trevak Dal wrote:
Panzer wrote:
relasine wrote:Yeah, the more I discuss Burst Cannons over Flamers, the more I find I'm talking myself out of them. I just don't know how effective Flamers will be since delivery is an issue.

I definitely plan to use them in combination with a Homing Beacon. After that with their 8" <Fly> move and the option to advance since Flamer are Assault weapons it shouldn't be a real problem to deliver them.


Hmm. The real question is if we can shoot with the flamers, charge (or get charged) weather the storm of attacks, maybe get a few licks in too, hop out in our next turn, shoot them again and then charge again, though I think Fly only allows us to shoot with no penalty, not go all XV9 on them.

Huh I wonder if xv9s will be t6?

We can't fall back and charge that turn. We can 'only' fall back and shoot the same turn.
We also can't advance, shoot and charge since nothing allows us to advance and charge.

So either you move+shoot+charge or advance+shoot or fall back+shoot

knute
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Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#86 » Jun 16 2017 10:20

I think the natural bearers of velocity trackers will be our larger suits (Ghostkeel [maybe], Riptide, and Stormsurge) and Stealthsuits (since it's so cheap for them; I think the ATS is just too much of an investment for them).

But I do think VTs are a lot better than they're getting credit for. It's cheap (2 points for small suits, 10 points for big suits), *really* good against some factions (T'au, Eldar, Necrons), good against most others, and situational against the rest of the factions. In fact, I think the only faction against which it would be generally useless is Orks, which are already a decent matchup for us.

I'll be trying them out soon enough and let y'all know how it goes in the BatReps section of the concourse.

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Vector Strike
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Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#87 » Jun 16 2017 11:07

http://www.3plusplus.net/2017/06/tau-we ... h-edition/

3++ made a table for tau weapons crunch. Seems like CIBs are the new hotness for suits

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Panzer
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Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#88 » Jun 16 2017 11:11

knute wrote:I think the natural bearers of velocity trackers will be our larger suits (Ghostkeel [maybe], Riptide, and Stormsurge) and Stealthsuits (since it's so cheap for them; I think the ATS is just too much of an investment for them).

But I do think VTs are a lot better than they're getting credit for. It's cheap (2 points for small suits, 10 points for big suits), *really* good against some factions (T'au, Eldar, Necrons), good against most others, and situational against the rest of the factions. In fact, I think the only faction against which it would be generally useless is Orks, which are already a decent matchup for us.

I'll be trying them out soon enough and let y'all know how it goes in the BatReps section of the concourse.

There are more against which it's pretty useless. In my group I have a Space Wolve/Astra Militarum player who rarely uses one of his flyer and never Jump Packs, a Skitarii player who wish he had anything like that (among a ton of other things he wish he had) and a Tyranid player who does like the Flyrant but likes other units a lot more (and we seriously don't need help against Gargoyles lol).
Against all those armies/players VT would be a wasted slot in 90% of the games.

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Panzer
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Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#89 » Jun 16 2017 11:12

Vector Strike wrote:http://www.3plusplus.net/2017/06/tau-weapons-8th-edition/

3++ made a table for tau weapons crunch. Seems like CIBs are the new hotness for suits

We already figured that out weeks ago though? xD

Ash87
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Re: 8th edition crisis suits

Post#90 » Jun 16 2017 02:00

In 7th, I ran suits with 2 separate plasma rifles, or missile suits, or a flamer suit using Irridium plate. The flamer suit was either awesome, or sucked, he had No middle ground. He regularly made the Grey Knight guy I usually play against, piss himself though, because on good weeks, he'd eat whole squads of marines.

The best unit on average I used though, had to be those 2 plasma rifles. So, I'll probably run that or CIB this time on most of my suits. I like the CIB's versatility, since he can hang back at 18, throwing out a pretty decent volume of fire. I know a lot of people say it doesn't work out math wise, but I will probably go with 2 weapons and a system though. Probably ATS? Though, I may just go with having 3 or 4 shield drones hang out around my Crisis suits to be wound depositories.

And before someone says it, yes I know a good player will just pick off the drones before they attack the suits, but that still puts some guns on drones that would otherwise be trained at something else, which is a win in my book.

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