Modifiers are cumulative. It's a thing!

Discuss any rules that are confusing or bothering you.
DVeight
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Modifiers are cumulative. It's a thing!

Post#1 » Jun 16 2017 06:55

So I have the rules finally in my hands. It's release day! Finally.

Anyways just wanted to share the sentence in the section "tools of war" which is before the core rules which states "all modifiers are cumulative".

So for instance if you had two commanders with drone controller and both were within 6" of a drone unit then that unit of drones benefits from both and their shooting would go from a 5+ to 3+.

This is key for us to be aware of.

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relasine
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Re: Modifiers are cumulative. It's a thing!

Post#2 » Jun 16 2017 07:10

Modifiers can be cumulative, but the wording for Drone Controller clearly identifies that it's not supposed to be cumulative. There is a cause ("Drone units within 6" of a model equipped with a drone controller"), and an effect ("add one to any hit rolls"). The cause is boolean; either you are within 6" of a model with a drone controller or you are not. There is nothing to indicate cumulative effect. If the rule was meant to be cumulative, it'd read more along the lines of:

"Friendly <Sept> Drone units add one to any hit roll for every model within 6" that is equipped with a drone controller".

It's worth noting how insane this would make Stealth teams were Drone Controllers cumulative.

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Vector Strike
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Re: Modifiers are cumulative. It's a thing!

Post#3 » Jun 16 2017 07:18

Do we have any example of cumulative wording in any of the indexes? Just for comparison

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relasine
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Re: Modifiers are cumulative. It's a thing!

Post#4 » Jun 16 2017 07:25

Vector Strike wrote:Do we have any example of cumulative wording in any of the indexes? Just for comparison

Markerlights, which specifically says that all benefits are cumulative.

Genestealer Patriach's Brood Telepathy rule is clearly cumulative with other Patriarchs. "You can add 1 to hit rolls in the Fight phase for friendly Purestrain Genestealer units that are within 6" of this model".

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Iron-Fist
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Re: Modifiers are cumulative. It's a thing!

Post#5 » Jun 16 2017 07:38

I guess I'm confused how "a model equipped with x" is different from "this model" in this context.

It doesn't say cumulative. It has the same "cause" (within a distance of a model) and effect (add 1 to a roll).
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Vector Strike
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Re: Modifiers are cumulative. It's a thing!

Post#6 » Jun 16 2017 07:50

relasine wrote:Genestealer Patriach's Brood Telepathy rule is clearly cumulative with other Patriarchs. "You can add 1 to hit rolls in the Fight phase for friendly Purestrain Genestealer units that are within 6" of this model".


Doesn't seems to stack for me. It's missing an 'each' there.

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relasine
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Re: Modifiers are cumulative. It's a thing!

Post#7 » Jun 16 2017 08:01

Vector Strike wrote:
relasine wrote:Genestealer Patriach's Brood Telepathy rule is clearly cumulative with other Patriarchs. "You can add 1 to hit rolls in the Fight phase for friendly Purestrain Genestealer units that are within 6" of this model".


Doesn't seems to stack for me. It's missing an 'each' there.

It's the Purestrain Genestealers that are benefiting, not the Patriarch.

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Iron-Fist
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Re: Modifiers are cumulative. It's a thing!

Post#8 » Jun 16 2017 08:15

Drones benefit... please let drone controllers be cumulative please
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DVeight
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Re: Modifiers are cumulative. It's a thing!

Post#9 » Jun 16 2017 08:20

I will continue to beg to differ because the wording of "any" is a prefix to the hit rolls. Not to the model itself that has drone controller. For instance the Fireblade reads "models in sept units within 6" of any cadre fireblade". Here the word "any" sits as a prefix to the character model itself so it means that it doesn't matter how many fire blades you have the effect will not be cumulative.

The drone controller modifier reads totally different and the word "any" is before and relating to the hit rolls, not the modifier nor the model with that modifier. So ergo, the modifier is cumulative and in line with the core rules that state "all modifiers are cumulative".

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Vector Strike
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Re: Modifiers are cumulative. It's a thing!

Post#10 » Jun 16 2017 08:30

relasine wrote:
Vector Strike wrote:
relasine wrote:Genestealer Patriach's Brood Telepathy rule is clearly cumulative with other Patriarchs. "You can add 1 to hit rolls in the Fight phase for friendly Purestrain Genestealer units that are within 6" of this model".


Doesn't seems to stack for me. It's missing an 'each' there.

It's the Purestrain Genestealers that are benefiting, not the Patriarch.


Ah, my bad. I think they should've used 'to' instead of 'for', though.

DVeight
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Re: Modifiers are cumulative. It's a thing!

Post#11 » Jun 16 2017 08:57

Reading the sniper drones and marksman now against that core rule. Well the sniper drones just got better. Have two marksmen near a unit and they will benefit from both marksmans abilities as modifiers are cumulative in line with the core rule.

We should all feel little better about our T'au.

Ted the Tau
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Re: Modifiers are cumulative. It's a thing!

Post#12 » Jun 16 2017 09:06

It's the same deal with the Firesight marksman. You'll only ever get +1 to hit because an enemy unit can only ever be visible or not visible to a friendly FM. It's a yes or no condition, there is no numerical factor involved here (the same is true for the drone controller rule btw.)

The section about modifiers being cumulative is about multiple modifiers appyling to the same stat/roll, not every ability being stackable.

Marksman Drones get +1 to hit from friendly drone controllers within 6", +1 from the FM Drone Uplink ability and +1 to hit from 5 Markerlights. Those three modifiers are cumulative, so you get a maximum of +3 to hit if you can get them all at the same time.

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Maxwell
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Re: Modifiers are cumulative. It's a thing!

Post#13 » Jun 16 2017 09:13

Ted the Tau wrote:It's the same deal with the Firesight marksman. You'll only ever get +1 to hit because an enemy unit can only ever be visible or not visible to a friendly FM. It's a yes or no condition, there is no numerical factor involved here (the same is true for the drone controller rule btw.)

The section about modifiers being cumulative is about multiple modifiers appyling to the same stat/roll, not every ability being stackable.

Marksman Drones get +1 to hit from friendly drone controllers within 6", +1 from the FM Drone Uplink ability and +1 to hit from 5 Markerlights. Those three modifiers are cumulative, so you get a maximum of +3 to hit if you can get them all at the same time.


This. You want to say it (drone controller) should be cumulative? Ok. You want to say GW meant for it to be cumulative? Well ok I guess.

But the wording as written is a yes/no condition. If yes then +1, if not then no change.

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relasine
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Re: Modifiers are cumulative. It's a thing!

Post#14 » Jun 16 2017 09:28

Iron-Fist wrote:Drones benefit... please let drone controllers be cumulative please

For the record, I'd be over-the-moon if this were the commonly accepted/FAQ'd outcome. The 32 Gun Drone list I'm pushing around would benefit enormously.

DVeight wrote:I will continue to beg to differ because the wording of "any" is a prefix to the hit rolls.

This is a fair point, but can equally be argued as a matter of inconsistency of rules language.

DVeight
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Re: Modifiers are cumulative. It's a thing!

Post#15 » Jun 16 2017 11:13

I can understand the inconsistencies of rules language but you have to take these new rules in it's simplest form rather than how it has been. They are simple rules. No reading between the lines which is what is happening.

Core rules - "all benefits are cumulative". It's one sentence. Very clear and simple English.

Now let me flip it. What benefits in T'au list are not cumulative?

It appears the arguments for pretty much all abilities with benefits under Tau are not cumulative. With the exception of drone table which is explicitly defined for a reason not to get confused.

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Gragagrogog
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Re: Modifiers are cumulative. It's a thing!

Post#16 » Jun 17 2017 02:29

I'm surprised with what interpretations people come up with... Yea, all bonuses are cumulative, rule one says you get -1, rule two says you get +1, rule three says you get -2, it all summs up. It says nothing about one rule stacking multiple times or not.

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Panzer
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Re: Modifiers are cumulative. It's a thing!

Post#17 » Jun 17 2017 04:34

DVeight wrote:I can understand the inconsistencies of rules language but you have to take these new rules in it's simplest form rather than how it has been. They are simple rules. No reading between the lines which is what is happening.

Core rules - "all benefits are cumulative". It's one sentence. Very clear and simple English.

Now let me flip it. What benefits in T'au list are not cumulative?

It appears the arguments for pretty much all abilities with benefits under Tau are not cumulative. With the exception of drone table which is explicitly defined for a reason not to get confused.

We do take it in its simplest form. We just understand how the english language works. The way Drone Controller and many other effects are worded is that they are a binary condition.

If they wanted to make it cumulative they could have worded it
"Friendly <Sept> Drone units within 6" of this model add one to any hit rolls" (or add a sentence that says it's cumulative to be 100% specific about it)
This way you would get the bonus for each model with a Drone Controller you are in range with.
"Friendly <Sept> Drone units within 6" of a model equipped with a drone controller add one to any hit rolls" doesn't indicate that it stacks at all. It's binary. Are you within range of a model equipped with a drone controller? Yes? You get the bonus. That doesn't change when you are within range of 3 models with a drone controller.

The note that modifiers stack doesn't change anything. Of course modifiers stack. How else could it be? Otherwise you would always only suffer from -1 to hit even if you moved with a heavy weapon and the shoot on a Ghostkeel within range of its Stealth Drone.

I mean if they FAQ/Errata it so that it does stack it would be nice....but it would solidify of a 99% Drone List for T'au even more. Take a few Stealth Suits with Drone Controller or Commander even for the Character bonus and suddenly all your incredibly cheap Drones hit on 2+. Something no other unit could ever achieve in our army.
Actually that's another indicator that it does NOT work that way.

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relasine
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Re: Modifiers are cumulative. It's a thing!

Post#18 » Jun 17 2017 08:41

Panzer wrote:I mean if they FAQ/Errata it so that it does stack it would be nice....but it would solidify of a 99% Drone List for T'au even more. Take a few Stealth Suits with Drone Controller or Commander even for the Character bonus and suddenly all your incredibly cheap Drones hit on 2+. Something no other unit could ever achieve in our army.
Actually that's another indicator that it does NOT work that way.

I think at the end of the day, this is the most reasonable argument. The wording could be interpreted to make Drone Controller stack, but the end result doesn't pass the smell test.

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