Tau Ghostkeel....is it a viable option>?

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
Antao
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Re: Tau Ghostkeel....is it a viable option>?

Post#37 » Aug 03 2017 06:02

handsomemenace wrote:IMO 6 Stealth Suits are better than a single ghostkeel.

Likewise, the two units have the same armor save, the only problem is that the SS unit has a toughness of 4, compared to the GKs 7. So Bolters are going to wound on 4+, and anything bigger than that on a 3+ vs the SS unit, whereas the GK will only be wounded on 5+ against most things that aren't vehicle or elite weapons. As well, the 6 SSs will have the same wound pool as a GK.


I missed this the first... second... and third read through of the index as well, but stealthsuits have the INFANTRY keyword, so if you drop them in cover they are at -1 to hit always and a 2+ Sv. Makes them a tough nut to crack.

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Yojimbob
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Re: Tau Ghostkeel....is it a viable option>?

Post#38 » Aug 03 2017 08:30

Antao wrote:
handsomemenace wrote:IMO 6 Stealth Suits are better than a single ghostkeel.

Likewise, the two units have the same armor save, the only problem is that the SS unit has a toughness of 4, compared to the GKs 7. So Bolters are going to wound on 4+, and anything bigger than that on a 3+ vs the SS unit, whereas the GK will only be wounded on 5+ against most things that aren't vehicle or elite weapons. As well, the 6 SSs will have the same wound pool as a GK.


I missed this the first... second... and third read through of the index as well, but stealthsuits have the INFANTRY keyword, so if you drop them in cover they are at -1 to hit always and a 2+ Sv. Makes them a tough nut to crack.


Yes, it's how I use my stealths to make sure I get my homing beacon on the table when I'm going second (barring I don't steal the initiative :roll:) to great effect. People WANT to shoot them but they don't want to shoot them. Usually they fire a couple of shots and waste it entirely. Less shooty on my other squads. Yay!

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Plainshow
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Re: Tau Ghostkeel....is it a viable option>?

Post#39 » Aug 14 2017 06:11

I've had good luck with my Ghostkeels so far in 8th. I typically run 3, but my mindset for taking them is from a slightly different angle then the other comments and Mathhammer analysis. As you're just starting I'll assume you're not too concerned with tournament level competitiveness of units, and just want to maximize what you have and like. While I do like to play in local tournaments and the occasional GT, I do prefer to use the units I like aesthetically, and I like to play fully painted (when possible).
Rayzthedead wrote:I find them a solid infantry harraser but the ion falls short on tanks. Should I be playing them as fusion platforms? Side note im running 2 rail head and a rail long strike, and 2 4x fusion commanders so i feel my anti tank load out is solid in my list...
I can speak what works for me in my local scene. The Ghostkeels work well in my list, and after playing with the loadouts, I only take Raker, double Burst, ATS, and TLock any more. FC/2FB just seems to be lackluster compared to the Commanders you have, without the benefit of range your Hammerheads bring to the table. They were good gap fillers in my list. I needed some 'all rounder' units that could be decent against the majority of enemy units, but were not expected to excel at any one thing and shining in mobility. Ghostkeels can threaten most infantry (as you noted), Monstrous Creatures and light/transport vehicles. They won't one shot or wipe things, but they can pitch in and mop up/soften something. I, like you, use other units for dedicated Anti-tank, but the Ghostkeel can help in a pinch. They are also good mid-field operators. When picking a fast moving unit to help move into the center of the battlefield to grab objectives, the Ghostkeel works well. The ability to Infiltrate is a massive buff this edition, and can give you a jump on progressive objectives where Tau can now struggle after losing JSJ. The range of it's weapons systems works well here, and harassing objectives makes it more of a target. Raising it's target priority for opponents is important for me. The Ghostkeel, when maneuvered correctly, minimizes the impact of enemy shooting, but often is not offensively threatening enough to rate highly on an opponent's list of things that they need remove. By forcing their hand by playing to objectives, you can induce your opponent to value the Ghostkeel as a problem. It's an annoying gambit to be in (and we have all felt it at one point or another), so do they prioritize what is scoring, or what is an offensive liability? This often can lead to two outcomes, they will dedicate more firepower than they want to to kill it with shooting (which can also be mitigated by Savior Protocols), or they will have to close distance to improve their shooting odds or assault. Either way, you have an advantage to capitolize on.
PJetski wrote:Ghostkeels make excellent flank protectors if you give them an Early Warning Override. If enemies deploy within 12" they get shot immediately, and if they deploy >12" they have -2 to shoot you. It's a win-win scenario for the Tau player.
That's a great way to look at it. I've got to play around with this, as my local scene has many Deep Strike heavy opponents. Grey Knight Strike Squads are very common now that their Codex is here.
Panzer wrote:I agree, but I'd like to leave FW out of discussions about GW units. :P
If OP has FW available, it's worth noting. I know every FLGS near me (North East US) and all the major tournaments are FW friendly. There are often restrictions on Titans, but even in 7th experimental rules were good to go in casual. But I loved me some Tetras last edition, so I'm biased!

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Ghostwolf
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Re: Tau Ghostkeel....is it a viable option>?

Post#40 » Aug 16 2017 11:06

I've had relatively good success with my Ghostkeel mostly due to having good placement and a scarier target (Y'Vahra and Stormsurge). It's not gonna sucker punch an enemy unit, but its weapons are great at softening Target or finishing off some as others have said. Especially when overcharging.

I run it with a CIR, Flamer x2, ATS, and Target Lock. Now granted I run units of Shield Drones and Technical Drones for support (he deploys too far to use them unless they book it) he is still damned durable. If he could take HYMP he would be even scarier, but as is without ML support and a Commander calling Kauyon he still is great at harassment and area denial.

Things that Ghostkeel users should be aware of are DS units with HFs (and their equivalents) and Smite Spam.

Now the Y'Vahra, that's a scary piece of tech.

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ghostancisco
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Re: Tau Ghostkeel....is it a viable option>?

Post#41 » Sep 21 2017 07:34

My first couple of uses of the ghostkeel was pretty underwhelming but i learned how to position it and its drones in a more survivable fashion and it started to put in work. It really never did a ton of damage but it did support what the rest of my army was doing quite well. It wasnt until I ran enough pathfinders to give it 5 markers that i saw it really shine. Im talking mvp kind of performances against the same opponent twice in a row good. It HAS to have that marker support to pull its weight in the offensive side of the game.

I havent run the fusion loadout yet and i don't think i even want to try it out. ion raker, double burst, ats and target lock helps it get around and do damage. I think i will be adding a second one soon.

the target lock does seem redundant with the markerlight support. lol. im gonna have to decide whether i need it or not.
For the Gooder Great!

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Bloodknife92
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Re: Tau Ghostkeel....is it a viable option>?

Post#42 » Sep 21 2017 08:37

A few things to note about the Ghostkeel from my point of view:

-A Target Lock is only necessary for the Ion Raker, as the Fusion Collider is an Assault Weapon, not a Heavy Weapon.
-While outclassed in almost every way by other units, if you're not trying to maximise your cheese, Ghostkeels can be helpful to have.
-They make for a great distraction to keep your other units alive.
-They make for some great variety in your army, as opposed to 2000pts of just Commanders, which I personally don't like.
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Panzer
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Re: Tau Ghostkeel....is it a viable option>?

Post#43 » Sep 21 2017 11:16

Bloodknife92 wrote:A few things to note about the Ghostkeel from my point of view:

-A Target Lock is only necessary for the Ion Raker, as the Fusion Collider is an Assault Weapon, not a Heavy Weapon.

Uhm, no. The Fusion Collider is Heavy 1d3. The Fusion Blaster is Assault. Would've been nice otherwise because it would free up two support slots for some Shield Gen/Stim Injector + VT/EWO shenanigans but it unfortunately isn't the case.

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Bloodknife92
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Re: Tau Ghostkeel....is it a viable option>?

Post#44 » Sep 22 2017 12:04

Oh damn you're right. I'm not sure how I got my info wrong D:
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Arka0415
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Re: Tau Ghostkeel....is it a viable option>?

Post#45 » Sep 22 2017 12:27

Bloodknife92 wrote:Oh damn you're right. I'm not sure how I got my info wrong D:


Maybe you just got confused about ATS? People commonly talk about ATS being viable only on CIR Ghostkeels but not on FC Ghostkeels.

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Bloodknife92
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Re: Tau Ghostkeel....is it a viable option>?

Post#46 » Sep 22 2017 03:41

Arka0415 wrote:
Bloodknife92 wrote:Oh damn you're right. I'm not sure how I got my info wrong D:


Maybe you just got confused about ATS? People commonly talk about ATS being viable only on CIR Ghostkeels but not on FC Ghostkeels.

Negative. I was adamant that one of the primary weapons of the Ghostkeel was Assault and not heavy. I'm questioning my life choices now :D
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Haechi
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Re: Tau Ghostkeel....is it a viable option>?

Post#47 » Sep 22 2017 05:10

I play my Ghostkeel in what I call my infiltration blob. Shadowsun and drones, 6 stealths and 2 shield drones, Ghostkeel and drones. All with the most fusion I can bring. I always deploy them as a big blob with Shadowsun in the middle. All my Stealth have Multitrackers, so they reroll 1s by themselves, and I use the command drone on the Ghostkeel so she can reroll as well. This blob is freaking unkillable and brought me so many tournament victories. And the best thing is to go second against mechanized type of armies. They will often move up to you in their first turn, coming into 18" range, so you just have to declare Kayon and not even move.

I'm also very interested with the cheap Ghostkeel, Ions + Burst, and see how much of a distraction/annoyance it can be. Too bad you can't do ATS, TL, and Multitracker on it.

Duckumentary
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Re: Tau Ghostkeel....is it a viable option>?

Post#48 » Sep 22 2017 12:21

I've played the Ghostkeel in several games so far and have been pleased with it's performance. In my early games I had used 2 - 6x XV25 Stealth Suit teams with shield drones to help protect it by deploying them together. This worked well, as the Ghostkeel was the largest model on the table (no Vehicles, Riptide variants, or Stormsurge) meaning it was the natural target for his high strength ranged attacks, such as Lasguns. It becomes incredibly resilient. The Ghostkeel had 2 BC, 1 CIR, ATS, & TL. The damage output was decent. However, I wished I was able to have more shield drones and more survivability from the Ghostkeel. So in the next game, I split the stealth suits into 4 teams of 3 with 2 drones each (8 total) and gave the Ghostkeel a fusion build, in order to remove the necessity for the ATS and be able to give him a 4++ Invul. For fun, I also brought Shadowsun, giving me 10 shield drones surrounding the Ghostkeel mid field. He was TERRIFIED of the unit. He put everything into it but couldn't commit enough fire to kill the drones outright.

Do I think the Ghostkeel is a good unit to field by itself? No. I don't think I could drop it on the table by itself and expect it to survive. But through the synergy provided by the stealth suits, it seems like an ideal choice if you're willing to commit 1/3 of your points into a very survivable mid-field strike force.

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relasine
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Re: Tau Ghostkeel....is it a viable option>?

Post#49 » Sep 22 2017 01:15

My opinion on Ghostkeels is that they're okay. Obviously out-classed by Fusion Commanders, but this, I think based on all reasonable assumption, is temporary until December when Chapter Approved comes out and Fusion Commanders see a substantial point increase. Fusion Ghostkeels have a crazy damage ceiling, Infiltration is solid, and there are a variety of different loadouts. If you're going to cloud them in Drones, you can skimp on the Shield Generator. If you want to play them aggressively unsupported by Drones, it's a good idea to take one. Target Lock is a necessity. Multi-Tracker isn't a bad second support system if you're not running lots of Markerlights

I have played four games with with Fusionkeels, always running two in a list, typically not surrounding them with a ton of Drones, and they've done really well. Out of all those games, only one died, and I purposely used it as a trade piece to draw my opponent in a specific direction.

In one game I did manage to get one into cover with hidden Stealth Drones and the thing was a damned beast at -2 to-hit and and 2+ armor save. When Lascannons started pouring in, I just transferred to nearby Drones (had it nearby Shadowsun with her Shield Drones), and the shots just panged off uselessly. If you can get a Ghostkeel in cover into a position where it's still close enough to shoot at targets, it's unreal. Anecdotal example, and an obvious situational one at that, but still.

To me, if you cut Commanders out of the anti-armor discussion, Ghostkeels have a place. They don't have the accuracy of Hammerheads, but are more points-efficient in their expected wound-to-point ratio due to their multiple shots and much higher damage ceiling. Fusion Blaster-armed Crisis Teams are actually more points-efficient than Ghostkeels here, though, which is interesting in the context of thinking about a post-Commander T'au list building state. That said, I don't think Crisis Suits or Ghostkeels are likely to see a points decrease. People are happy to label them as being not good, but they're comparatively pretty solid when looked at across factions to things like Las Predators, particularly as both Crisis Teams and Ghostkeels have all types of utility that Predators do not. I think that people are just pre-disposed to dislike both Ghostkeels and Crisis Teams because Commanders are just incredibly out-of-whack on points efficiency and the Force Organization rules in Matched Play are so loose, that there might as well not be Force Organization rules.

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Panzer
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Re: Tau Ghostkeel....is it a viable option>?

Post#50 » Sep 22 2017 01:23

Shield Drones did so incredibly well for my HRR Broadside and for my Flamer Crisis I'm seriously thinking about taking another independent unit of Shield Drones just to catch up with my Ghostkeel (since even though I'm underwhelmed by the Ghostkeel, it's still one of my favorite models so I keep using it anyway^^).

Just unsure about the loadout, really.
I like the CIR for the better range and because taking ATS on it improves Burst Cannons and Flamer as well. However the Fusion Collider is also attractive despite it's meh profile (1d3 Fusion Blaster shots is really nothing worth mentioning for a big suits main weapon...) since it frees up a support slot so I could take a Shield Gen instead of ATS.
My indecision goes so far that I think about getting another Ghostkeel and just play both though that would be quite expensive and prevent me from taking other fun things like Flamer Crisis or Breacher in a fish or my HRR Broadside. :P

AleksandrGRC
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Re: Tau Ghostkeel....is it a viable option>?

Post#51 » Sep 23 2017 05:12

I like the options of multi trackers and targetlocks not having to reley on markerlights but after a few games ill put my vote with; if you Spam anything. Spam ML's and use those slots on suits for hitting even harder or more often. ATS, EWO/VT. The keels should easily be able to get in range with supersonic flyers.

AleksandrGRC
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Re: Tau Ghostkeel....is it a viable option>?

Post#52 » Sep 23 2017 05:30

Question that i should already know the answer to.
When deploying stealth suits or ghost keels.
At any point but lets say i deploy first. Can i deploy within an inch of the opponents deployment zone since there is no units to be within 12" of? And then can an opponent just deploy right infront of them no big deal?
So far ive been deploying them dead last to avoid shenanigans.

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Panzer
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Re: Tau Ghostkeel....is it a viable option>?

Post#53 » Sep 23 2017 06:25

AleksandrGRC wrote:Question that i should already know the answer to.
When deploying stealth suits or ghost keels.
At any point but lets say i deploy first. Can i deploy within an inch of the opponents deployment zone since there is no units to be within 12" of? And then can an opponent just deploy right infront of them no big deal?
So far ive been deploying them dead last to avoid shenanigans.

Yes that's possible and usually not a very smart thing to do.
I usually hold them back to place last or, if the opponent has infiltrators as well, place them first somewhere in the middle between the deployment zones to deny him a good infiltration spot.

AleksandrGRC
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Re: Tau Ghostkeel....is it a viable option>?

Post#54 » Sep 23 2017 09:08

Fabtastic. Right infront was more to communicate what i wanted to know. The actual application of the deployment would be more practical like deciding i want a certain objective or terrain piece.

I guess i was not concerned about enemy infiltration during my deployment stratagy and i should be. Last time i played my friend I specifically told him i intend to "up my deployment game". then when the time came to use his ambush rules and roll on his chart. He couldn't deploy because i had most the board locked down.

I can think of things i would like to do. But units with 18" range or so i guess deployment to early could really be a detriment. Otherwise i could see ghostkeels or homing beacon stealths being a good deployment distraction luring for a response.

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