Flamers vs. Burst cannons

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
Neston
Shas'Saal
Posts: 7

Flamers vs. Burst cannons

Post#1 » Aug 27 2017 10:29

Hello guys!

I just thinking about the weapon loadouts on crisis suits. I read several times when players have a lot of good experiences with the flamer suits. But I really don't get it why.

If we check it via math., 9XFlamers unit max shots is 56. It is meaning we rolled all dice a 6, so it is unlikely, but this is the max shots what we can get.

With burst cannons, it is 36 shot. The flamers are better IF we roll all of our dice 5 or more. Roll for 4 is only better (honestly not better, just equivalent) if our target has 3T or worst. So vs. MEQ, we have 2/6 (~33%) chance with each die for roll 5 or more. But in this case, we have to considering to wound 4+, not 3+ with burst cannons.

So if i'am calculating correctly, flamers is considering when we targeting T3 targets. And go with the bust cannons if we are going against T4.

I want to build an all around 1000 pts. army, and I have no point left for CIB crisis team. I can replace all weapons for CIBs IF I remove the gun drones, but I don't think this is a good idea.

What is your opinion?

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deathboon
Shas'Saal
Posts: 208

Re: Flamers vs. Burst cannons

Post#2 » Aug 27 2017 11:42

I think your math is off, when working this out its better to use statistical averages.

Triple Flamer Suit:
Avg d6 = (1+6)/2 = 3.5
*3 Flamers = 10.5 hits
Wounds t4 on a 4+ or 1/2 of the time so 10.5 * 0.5 = 5.25
So 5.25 wounds against t4 before saves

Triple burst suit
12 shots hit on 4+ or 1/2 of the time
12 * 0.5 = 6 hits
Wound t4 on 3+ or 2/3 of the time
So 6 * 0.6666 = ~4 wounds before saves.

This is more than a whole wound more, for 3 points less per suit. So for every 4 of these suits you get a whole extra wound on top of that for a total of 5 more wounds every 4 suits. The real question becomes this:
Is it worth 3points and -1.25 wounds for 10" more range?

[edit] clarity
Last edited by deathboon on Aug 28 2017 08:29, edited 2 times in total.

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Kakapo42
Shas'Vre
Shas'Vre
Posts: 936

Re: Flamers vs. Burst cannons

Post#3 » Aug 27 2017 11:43

Well I mainly play older editions where flamers have a nice big template. ;)

However, regardless of what 40k rule-set you use, an important factor to consider is that flamers hit independently of the shooters BS characteristic, which can be an important advantage when you consider un-augmented Tau BS is somewhat mediocre. This is especially significant in 8th where options for improving Tau BS are much fewer than in the past.
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Neston
Shas'Saal
Posts: 7

Re: Flamers vs. Burst cannons

Post#4 » Aug 28 2017 01:11

Thank you guys for the correction here. Especially you Deathboon, my math was really wrong. I will definetly try the flamersuits+homing beacon combo next time. :)

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Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3535

Re: Flamers vs. Burst cannons

Post#5 » Aug 28 2017 01:18

Honestly....Burst cannons are never worth it if you have the option of a different weapon (except for the AFP lol). Flamer and CIB both are better than Burst cannons.
CIB cost more? Sure. That hardly matters with how expensive the Crisis suit itself is though. It's so expensive that you don't really have the option to take more Crisis instead so equipping your expensive guys properly is the way to go.

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Aedeeg
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 14

Re: Flamers vs. Burst cannons

Post#6 » Aug 28 2017 04:42

If you look at my spreadsheet for crisis loadout it shows average wounds against different save values and points per wound. You are paying almost double the cost of a wound on the burst cannons compared to flamers. The flamers however are pretty dependant on a stealth team with a homing beacon so there is a tax there. Build your army how you see fit though. If stealth suits and flamer crisis suits don't fit into your play style then by all means use burst cannons. I think list building in 8th edition is more dependant on missions, personal playstyle and covering the weaknesses of hat playstyle than past editions.

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thesnailmaster
Shas'Saal
Posts: 137

Re: Flamers vs. Burst cannons

Post#7 » Aug 28 2017 05:15

Aedeeg wrote:If you look at my spreadsheet for crisis loadout it shows average wounds against different save values and points per wound. You are paying almost double the cost of a wound on the burst cannons compared to flamers. The flamers however are pretty dependant on a stealth team with a homing beacon so there is a tax there.


Well technically you only need the stealth team if you want to use manta strike deployment, otherwise you have 8+d6" movement and the 8" range so you can easily get turn 2 flamer attacks.

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deathboon
Shas'Saal
Posts: 208

Re: Flamers vs. Burst cannons

Post#8 » Aug 28 2017 06:28

thesnailmaster wrote:Well technically you only need the stealth team if you want to use manta strike deployment, otherwise you have 8+d6" movement and the 8" range so you can easily get turn 2 flamer attacks.


At that point you're already too late.

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Quorgyle
Shas'Saal
Posts: 61

Re: Flamers vs. Burst cannons

Post#9 » Aug 28 2017 08:24

thesnailmaster wrote:
Aedeeg wrote:If you look at my spreadsheet for crisis loadout it shows average wounds against different save values and points per wound. You are paying almost double the cost of a wound on the burst cannons compared to flamers. The flamers however are pretty dependant on a stealth team with a homing beacon so there is a tax there.


Well technically you only need the stealth team if you want to use manta strike deployment, otherwise you have 8+d6" movement and the 8" range so you can easily get turn 2 flamer attacks.



Loosing a whole turn not shooting, especially the first turn is a really really bad thing. On top of that, the Crisis Suits are expensive so they need to do their job, just running/flying a whole turn towards the enemy is not very price efficient, that's why they have the manta strike keyword.

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Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3535

Re: Flamers vs. Burst cannons

Post#10 » Aug 29 2017 12:00

deathboon wrote:
thesnailmaster wrote:Well technically you only need the stealth team if you want to use manta strike deployment, otherwise you have 8+d6" movement and the 8" range so you can easily get turn 2 flamer attacks.


At that point you're already too late.

No you are not. Not everything is about a turn 1 Alpha strike and even if it were Burst Cannons wouldn't be a good choice for that anyway.

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Rogue Sun
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 160

Re: Flamers vs. Burst cannons

Post#11 » Aug 29 2017 08:41

I agree you don't need the homing beacon, although if you don't use one I'd recommend bringing them in with a bunch of gun drones and a drone controller. The drones themselves do a decent number and serve to protect the suits so they survive to burn things down. I've had huge sucess with them against Demons, Necrons, Tau and Orks even without the homing beacon.

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Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3535

Re: Flamers vs. Burst cannons

Post#12 » Aug 30 2017 01:50

Yeah of course, always take a bunch of Drones with Flamer Crisis. At least the 2 per suit you get from their own unit and if you plan to let them walk over the board maybe a nother unit of 4.
I prefer Shield Drones over Gun Drones for Flamer Crisis though that's personal preference I'd say.

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DarkRaptor
Shas
Posts: 120

Re: Flamers vs. Burst cannons

Post#13 » Aug 30 2017 11:50

While you don't have to use the homing beacon, they generally become a high priority target and will most likely now get to do much flamer damage if you don't use the homing beacon.
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Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3535

Re: Flamers vs. Burst cannons

Post#14 » Aug 30 2017 12:22

If my opponent concentrates that much firepower to get rid of my flamer crisis and their group of shield drones, then I'll happily let him do that and have fun with my Commander, Breache, etc. in the meantime. It's all about target saturiation.

Also unless you go first your opponent will do the same to get rid of your Stealth Suits if he recognizes the Flamer Crisis as such a big threat and Stealth Suits with their max 2 drones should be easier to kill than Crisis with their 6+ Drones. Afterwards the Crisis would simply drop somewhere and do nothing for a turn, giving the opponent one more turn to shoot them.

It's not black&white. ;)

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Heldericht
Shas'Saal
Posts: 75

Re: Flamers vs. Burst cannons

Post#15 » Aug 31 2017 04:44

Panzer wrote:No you are not. Not everything is about a turn 1 Alpha strike and even if it were Burst Cannons wouldn't be a good choice for that anyway.


Burst cannons can manta strike and shoot, so they are categorically a better choice for that.

Flamers are too dependant on stealth teams which can die if you don't get turn 1. Not worth it.

Flamers are good to take in one slot on the suits alongwith 2 real ranged weps so you can come down and shoot then move up next turn and flamer as well or deter charges from within 8".

Using expensive Crisis suits for running up the board seems like a complete waste of points when they have the option to deepstrike.

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MNGamer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 96

Re: Flamers vs. Burst cannons

Post#16 » Aug 31 2017 05:36

Heldericht wrote:
Panzer wrote:No you are not. Not everything is about a turn 1 Alpha strike and even if it were Burst Cannons wouldn't be a good choice for that anyway.


Burst cannons can manta strike and shoot, so they are categorically a better choice for that.

Flamers are too dependant on stealth teams which can die if you don't get turn 1. Not worth it.

Flamers are good to take in one slot on the suits alongwith 2 real ranged weps so you can come down and shoot then move up next turn and flamer as well or deter charges from within 8".

Using expensive Crisis suits for running up the board seems like a complete waste of points when they have the option to deepstrike.


I use my crisis that way with 2x plasma and 1 flamer, they deep strike in at 11.99999999" for the plasma rapid-fire and then use the flamers in over watch and when they fall back from combat.
Even when broken, a sword may still cut~Aun'ko'vash

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ZettaCrash
Shas'Saal
Posts: 5

Re: Flamers vs. Burst cannons

Post#17 » Sep 01 2017 12:31

In my games, I have found personally that flamers are fantastic at being a deterrent while burst cannons are just much more versatile. Unless you get a homing beacon, suits cannot drop in fire range and if you give them burst cannons alongside drones and a controller, then the hail of bullets hurts far more.

That isn't to say flamers are useless as they have their own role. Roasting those foolish enough to charge just so you can back up and fire up some more has it's rewards too.

For me. Burst cannons are for most things while flamers fill a more auxiliary role. Many think charging suits will cripple them but that just isn't so anymore. :P

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Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3535

Re: Flamers vs. Burst cannons

Post#18 » Sep 01 2017 12:58

People who think charging suits will cripple them seriously need to re-read 8th core rules and what it means to have the FLY mechanic lol

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