Manta Deployments and "Half of Your Units"

Discuss any rules that are confusing or bothering you.
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CDR_Farsight
Shas'Saal
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Manta Deployments and "Half of Your Units"

Post#1 » Aug 28 2017 10:37

I have been reading the deployment rules, and I've come across something that seems legit, but I'm asking for opinions. If this has been discussed elsewhere with the same twist, please redirect me there.

At the end of deployment, each army must have HALF of their units deployed. That's the summary of deployment (I don't have the BRB in front of me).

Where this may benefit T'au: Units containing drones immediately become 2 separate units when they are placed on the battlefield. RAW, this should allow you to deploy 2 Units in Manta Strike for every unit with drones that you put on the table, and since the deployment rules specifically mention the end of deployment, this seems legal to me.

Example:
Place a Commander with two drones in Manta Strike
Place a Crisis Team with six Drones in Manta Strike

Place a Stealth Team with two Drones on the table

You started with 3 Units
The Commander remained a single unit since it was placed in Manta Strike
The Crisis Team remained a single unit since it was placed in Manta Strike
The Stealth Team became two units since the Drones split off

Therefore...at the end of the Deployment Phase, you had a total of 4 units, so two of them could be in Manta Strike.
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

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Yojimbob
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Re: Manta Deployments and "Half of Your Units"

Post#2 » Aug 28 2017 12:05

Yeah we've come to the conclusion before that it needs to probably be FAQ'ed since there is still some ambiguity. Clearly they want our units to be considered a single "drop" for deployment but it would seem like a huge double benefit for us and us only if we got to count them a single unit to drop in and then also as two units when set on the board. Doesn't seem right and I suspect it will get FAQ'ed with our codex.

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CDR_Farsight
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Re: Manta Deployments and "Half of Your Units"

Post#3 » Aug 28 2017 12:15

Other armies actually have similar situations. They just aren't as common as drones are to our units. For instance Carnifexes get deployed as a single drop, but then get treated as individual units the second they hit the table.
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

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CDR_Farsight
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Re: Manta Deployments and "Half of Your Units"

Post#4 » Aug 28 2017 12:21

I think it's a trade-off. Putting single drones on units or a couple drones on a Cadre may seem like it makes Manta more OP; however, you have to think that many game scenarios and tournament objectives are linked o kill points. If you want to trade-off giving your opponent easy kill points in order to achieve a certain style of play, then I say go for it.

If GW FAQs things like this but doesn't touch things like spam then they have their priorities out of focus. There needs to be some complexity and trade-offs in this game to separate the Shas'O from the Shas'ui...otherwise just go play Risk or Axis and Allies if you want all of the forces to be exactly the same.
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

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Vector Strike
Shas'La
Shas'La
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Re: Manta Deployments and "Half of Your Units"

Post#5 » Aug 28 2017 12:58

The relevant rules:

TACTICAL RESERVES
Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in Reserve, etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. When setting up your army during Deployment fora matched play game, at least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere. Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round counts as having been destroyed.


Drone Support: When a Strike Team is set up on the battlefield, any accompanying Drones are set up in unit coherency with it. From that point onwards, the Drones are treated as a separate unit.


And a bonus, as this might be involved in the discussion as well:
Transport Capacity: (...) When you set up a transport, units can start the battle embarked within it instead of being set up separately – declare what units are embarked inside the transport when you set it up.

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Glarblar
Shas'Saal
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Re: Manta Deployments and "Half of Your Units"

Post#6 » Aug 28 2017 01:13

Something to keep in mind is that the rules specify "Unit" and not "Force Organization Chart". Does that matter?

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StealthKnightSteg
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Re: Manta Deployments and "Half of Your Units"

Post#7 » Aug 29 2017 05:16

CDR_Farsight wrote:I have been reading the deployment rules, and I've come across something that seems legit, but I'm asking for opinions. If this has been discussed elsewhere with the same twist, please redirect me there.

At the end of deployment, each army must have HALF of their units deployed. That's the summary of deployment (I don't have the BRB in front of me).

Where this may benefit T'au: Units containing drones immediately become 2 separate units when they are placed on the battlefield. RAW, this should allow you to deploy 2 Units in Manta Strike for every unit with drones that you put on the table, and since the deployment rules specifically mention the end of deployment, this seems legal to me.

Example:
Place a Commander with two drones in Manta Strike
Place a Crisis Team with six Drones in Manta Strike

Place a Stealth Team with two Drones on the table

You started with 3 Units
The Commander remained a single unit since it was placed in Manta Strike
The Crisis Team remained a single unit since it was placed in Manta Strike
The Stealth Team became two units since the Drones split off

Therefore...at the end of the Deployment Phase, you had a total of 4 units, so two of them could be in Manta Strike.


Actually I don't think this will work as you should count the total number of units before they are being deployed not after for being eligible or not for reserves.
So your army list here would have 3 units (Datasheets) as the Stealth Team with it's drone(s) still counts as 1 unit on your army list.

And I think that a Devilfish with 2 units (datasheets) in it will count when you declare it will be deployed on the table as 3 and thus you can have 3 units (datasheets) from your army in reserve

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CDR_Farsight
Shas'Saal
Posts: 99

Re: Manta Deployments and "Half of Your Units"

Post#8 » Aug 29 2017 08:56

StealthKnightSteg wrote:you should count the total number of units before they are being deployed not after for being eligible or not for reserves.


Check the wording. I don't have a codex in front of me, but I do believe it specifically says either "after" or "at the end" of deployment, half of your "units" must be on the table. It does not say "units prior to deployment on your roster."
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

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Yojimbob
Shas'Saal
Posts: 376

Re: Manta Deployments and "Half of Your Units"

Post#9 » Aug 29 2017 09:13

StealthKnightSteg wrote:
CDR_Farsight wrote:I have been reading the deployment rules, and I've come across something that seems legit, but I'm asking for opinions. If this has been discussed elsewhere with the same twist, please redirect me there.

At the end of deployment, each army must have HALF of their units deployed. That's the summary of deployment (I don't have the BRB in front of me).

Where this may benefit T'au: Units containing drones immediately become 2 separate units when they are placed on the battlefield. RAW, this should allow you to deploy 2 Units in Manta Strike for every unit with drones that you put on the table, and since the deployment rules specifically mention the end of deployment, this seems legal to me.

Example:
Place a Commander with two drones in Manta Strike
Place a Crisis Team with six Drones in Manta Strike

Place a Stealth Team with two Drones on the table

You started with 3 Units
The Commander remained a single unit since it was placed in Manta Strike
The Crisis Team remained a single unit since it was placed in Manta Strike
The Stealth Team became two units since the Drones split off

Therefore...at the end of the Deployment Phase, you had a total of 4 units, so two of them could be in Manta Strike.


Actually I don't think this will work as you should count the total number of units before they are being deployed not after for being eligible or not for reserves.
So your army list here would have 3 units (Datasheets) as the Stealth Team with it's drone(s) still counts as 1 unit on your army list.

And I think that a Devilfish with 2 units (datasheets) in it will count when you declare it will be deployed on the table as 3 and thus you can have 3 units (datasheets) from your army in reserve

Part of the problem is that they don't specify that you count beforehand or AS you are deploying because units split as soon as they hit the table.

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StealthKnightSteg
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Re: Manta Deployments and "Half of Your Units"

Post#10 » Aug 29 2017 09:17

As Vector Strike provided:

TACTICAL RESERVES
Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in Reserve, etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere. Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round counts as having been destroyed.

It speaks of "must be setup" future tense (spelling?) so my assumption is you need to decide beforehand how to divide the army

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CDR_Farsight
Shas'Saal
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Re: Manta Deployments and "Half of Your Units"

Post#11 » Aug 29 2017 09:49

StealthKnightSteg wrote:As Vector Strike provided:

TACTICAL RESERVES
Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in Reserve, etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements. When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere. Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round counts as having been destroyed.

It speaks of "must be setup" future tense (spelling?) so my assumption is you need to decide beforehand how to divide the army


Thanks for the repost. I had missed Vector Strike's post. I also disagree that "must be set up" has anything to do with timing due to tense.

The actual key phrase here is "When setting up your army DURING deployment." Since during deployment is when the single force org choice splits into 2 units, that is when I would argue that unit count occurs [note: personal...and maybe slightly biased...interpretation].

I don't think that clarifies it at all, however. Nowhere in the description does it say when you count the total number of units. (a) If you count them prior to deployment, then it is a 1 for 1...(b) if you count them after deployment but before reserves arrive then things deployed with drones are 2 units and things in manta with drones are 1...(c) if you count them as total units after all mandatory unit splits, then you may have to deploy 2 units on the ground for every manta unit with drones...that would make Manta worse by A LOT!

Given how things are worded, I would argue that the two scenarios that follow RAW the closest are actually (b) and (c)
(b) [best case scenario] follows the RAW using "during deployment" as the key phrase; therefore, total unit count happens only during deployment as well, and the end of deployment is technically still "during deployment."
(c) [worst case scenario] alternatively uses "total number of units in your army" as the key phrase which would mean you have to account for all units after mandatory unit breaks (note: non-mandatory unit breaks such as drones from vehicles do not count in any scenario)


...but if we try to apply RAI to this based on our past knowledge of 7th edition (which is in and of itself a no no in 8th) then scenario (a) [most likely scenario] is the likely interpretation. While fair, it lacks any particular flare and serves to remind us why T'au are no longer Tau.
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

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Gragagrogog
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 385

Re: Manta Deployments and "Half of Your Units"

Post#12 » Aug 29 2017 10:36

Imo, them using the word "units" here just means lazy word for "deployment drops", as it's a rule clearly intended to limit number of reserves, but the way it's worded, it also limits number of units that can start the game embarked if you'd take it RAW.

Just count deployment drops as they'd happen in alternating deployment, split it into reserve drops and battlefield drops, compare the 2. Done. The alternative interpretations would be stupid, I really don't think they intended you to not be able to transport a unit + character in a transport vehicle that start the game on the battlefield on average.

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StealthKnightSteg
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Re: Manta Deployments and "Half of Your Units"

Post#13 » Aug 29 2017 02:00

well we agree to a point that it's unclear right now :)

AlmostMercury
Shas
Posts: 84

Re: Manta Deployments and "Half of Your Units"

Post#14 » Sep 03 2017 12:29

If units deployed in a transport do not count as being "set up on the battlefield" for deployment, would that not mean units that do not disembark by turn 3 are destroyed?

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Gragagrogog
Shas'La
Shas'La
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Re: Manta Deployments and "Half of Your Units"

Post#15 » Sep 03 2017 02:06

Yep.... Which would support "them not even thinking about embarked units when they wrote that" theory.

AlmostMercury
Shas
Posts: 84

Re: Manta Deployments and "Half of Your Units"

Post#16 » Sep 03 2017 05:56

Yeah, I think the ruling is supposed to be units in transports are able to support reserve units. But they're responsive enough that I'm sure we'll get the answer soon enough.

Ricordis
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 334

Re: Manta Deployments and "Half of Your Units"

Post#17 » Sep 05 2017 08:33

Put your army on another table before the game starts.
Count them.
Subtract units in transports.
Divide by two.
Round up.
You got the number of units you have to deploy (take from the display table to the play table) before the game may start.

Remember: Tactical Drones belong to their parent unit until deployed. And for deployment transports and units inside them form a single unit until deployed.

Even if you put 6 Fireblades with one drone each in one Devilfish; for deployment they count as one unit. After deployment they are 13 different units but that does not mean you can have 13 units in reserve as you had to define the number before deployment.

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CDR_Farsight
Shas'Saal
Posts: 99

Re: Manta Deployments and "Half of Your Units"

Post#18 » Sep 05 2017 09:21

Ricordis wrote:Put your army on another table before the game starts.
Count them.
Subtract units in transports.
Divide by two.
Round up.
You got the number of units you have to deploy (take from the display table to the play table) before the game may start.

Remember: Tactical Drones belong to their parent unit until deployed. And for deployment transports and units inside them form a single unit until deployed.

Even if you put 6 Fireblades with one drone each in one Devilfish; for deployment they count as one unit. After deployment they are 13 different units but that does not mean you can have 13 units in reserve as you had to define the number before deployment.


Everyone understands that in practice...it's about how the rules are worded. Nowhere does it say that, nor do the rules as written even clearly lead you to that as rules as intended. The rule does, however, specifically state "Units" while the pre-game sequence specifically states "Deployments."
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

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