EWO and Characters

Discuss any rules that are confusing or bothering you.
Foolish Jack
Shas'Saal
Posts: 5

EWO and Characters

Post#1 » Sep 04 2017 04:58

So my question stems from specific wording for EWO.

"If an enemy unit is set up within 12" of a model equipped with EWO as the result of an ability that allows them to arrive mid-battle (i.e. teleporting to the battlefield), the model may immediately shoot at that unit as if it were your Shoooting phase."

That last bit is the tricky part for me. Was playing against a buddy using Grey Knights (who I deeply despise), and he teleported an apothecary behind his Paladins, about 10" from my Ghostkeel. We weren't sure about how to interpret that, because as we all know, you may not target a character with less than 10 wounds if there is a closer visible target during your Shooting phase. I didn't take the shot, because it would not have mattered much at that moment, but I was curious about it. The last line of the EWO description specifically says "as if it were your Shooting phase" which was, in my opinion, intended to make it clear you would fire at full ballistic skill instead of taking an Overwatch-style reaction shot. The problem for me is how many of the Shooting phase rules apply? If there is a closer target, can you not shoot the character? EWO also says you may only shoot the unit that dropped in, so does that mean your ability doesn't get to activate? What do you guys think?

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Gragagrogog
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 385

Re: EWO and Characters

Post#2 » Sep 04 2017 07:00

I'd say you still need LoS and range, but can shoot characters.

The argument for it would be that you need range and LoS "as if it was shooting phase", but the EWO would override the shooting sequence, you're skipping "selecting targets" step, that is done already by the EWO. (The character rule says you can't choose them as targets, not that you can't shoot them.)

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GND
Shas'La
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Re: EWO and Characters

Post#3 » Sep 05 2017 02:22

We ruled against targeting characters with Intercept-like rules (EWO or Auspex Scan or whatever comes in the future) in our play group. If the attack happens as if it was your shooting phase it has to follow every restriction of the shooting phase.

Note that checking ranges and LOS happens at the same step as selecting a target of a shooting attack. If we accept that we need to check ranges and LOS, we also need to respect the targeting restrictions for characters. (I can see an argument saying you don't have to check LOS or range and just start with step 3.3 Choose a Weapon, but that doesn't seem RAI and leads to degenerative gameplay)

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Jhul'vol
Shas'La
Shas'La
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Re: EWO and Characters

Post#4 » Sep 05 2017 04:41

We haven't had this issue in our group yet, me being the only Tau player and never using EWO.

I have to say I'm a bit torn on this one though.
I agree that since we shoot "as if your shooting phase", you normally would apply the rules for characters.
However, as far as I know, specific rules still trump general rules, and the specific rule states "the model may immediately shoot at that unit", which could overrule the no targeting characters.

I'd probably play it as not possible when playing with friends, though I think there is a case to make for saying it is possible.

Note: I don't have my BRB on me, and couldn't find anything in the free core rules about specific > general, not 100% if that's still in. If not, I'd say no targeting characters with EWO.

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Vector Strike
Shas'La
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Posts: 955

Re: EWO and Characters

Post#5 » Sep 05 2017 05:28

"as if it were your Shoooting phase"

Then you need to follow every limitation from the Shooting Phase. Can't fire at characters if they aren't the closest visible enemy unit.

If your city normally has tourneys going on, ask the usual TOs about it. I guess they might agree with me on this

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Gragagrogog
Shas'La
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Re: EWO and Characters

Post#6 » Sep 05 2017 06:20

Vector Strike wrote:Can't fire at characters if they aren't the closest visible enemy unit.


"A Character can only be chosen as a target in the Shooting phase if they are the closest ..."

^You are not choosing targets with EWO.

Ricordis
Shas'La
Shas'La
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Re: EWO and Characters

Post#7 » Sep 05 2017 08:16

Yes, you are, but you are only able to chose a unit from these fulfilling the criterias.
If a Death Company arrives together with a Chaplain and some Terminators you gotta chose. But the Chaplain is not targetable due to regular shooting rules.
Even if he arrives alone.

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CDR_Farsight
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Posts: 99

Re: EWO and Characters

Post#8 » Sep 05 2017 08:29

I don't have the index on me. Does the rule say you can shoot only once? If not, then each individual unit that is set up is targeted individually and mandatorily. The specific rules overrides target choice. You MUST target the unit that is set up. Because you do not have an option to "target a single unit that has been set-up" out of all units that arrive then a case can be made for the ability allowing it.
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

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Gragagrogog
Shas'La
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Re: EWO and Characters

Post#9 » Sep 05 2017 08:39

Ricordis wrote:Yes, you are, but you are only able to chose a unit from these fulfilling the criterias.
If a Death Company arrives together with a Chaplain and some Terminators you gotta chose. But the Chaplain is not targetable due to regular shooting rules.
Even if he arrives alone.


The only choice you're making here is to shoot, or not to shoot, PER each separate unit that drops in EWO range. This is not 7th edition and it is not Interceptor universal special rule. If 10 different units drop within 12", you can shoot 10 different units one whole one turn of shooting worth per each unit. You are not chosing any targets, they are chosen by the EWO rules and by the actions of your opponent.

Blinx
Shas'Saal
Posts: 13

Re: EWO and Characters

Post#10 » Sep 05 2017 08:54

I think that saying you can shoot at characters implies you can ignore LoS and range as well which is obviously not intended

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CDR_Farsight
Shas'Saal
Posts: 99

Re: EWO and Characters

Post#11 » Sep 05 2017 10:15

Blinx wrote:I think that saying you can shoot at characters implies you can ignore LoS and range as well which is obviously not intended


I disagree. The wording only implies that target choice is overridden/negated....not that LoS or range is. It also implies that you can do it after each unit is set up...not that you can only choose one after all units are set up, so it already deviates from the standard shooting phase.
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

Blinx
Shas'Saal
Posts: 13

Re: EWO and Characters

Post#12 » Sep 05 2017 11:04

So the rulebook says:
In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within the Range of the
weapon being used (as listed on its profile) and be visible to the shooting model


And the character rule states:
A Character can only be chosen as a target in the Shooting phase ...


So I'd keep with 'the model may immediately shoot at that unit as if it were your Shoooting phase.' as either ignore all or none of LoS, Range and Character as these are all to do with targetting.

Now it's down to whether 'shoot at' is before or after targetting.

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CDR_Farsight
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Posts: 99

Re: EWO and Characters

Post#13 » Sep 05 2017 12:33

Blinx wrote:And the character rule states:
A Character can only be chosen as a target in the Shooting phase ...


Now it's down to whether 'shoot at' is before or after targetting.


You are missing the point. The EWO rule actively bypasses target selection whereas it does not actively bypass range and LoS. It is not an "all or nothing" situation. There is no choice in the targeting; therefore, you are not breaking the rule of CHOOSING TO TARGET a character. [Chosen] is the key word here...there is no choice whatsoever in how the EWO targets.

For instance, there are a few AoE abilities that say "pick a point on the battlefield" everything within 3" of that point takes a mortal wound on a 4+. The model with that ability at no point says it can target characters. Are we to believe that characters are either immune to the ability or that you are not allowed to place the center point within 3" of a character because that model can't target characters?

It's called an Early Warning OVERRIDE...as in it overrides the normal targeting of the model to target a threat it has detected appearing close by that the operator may not have detected. Does the signature of a character's teleportation look different than a regular terminator teleportation? Do characters flying in from above not show up on RADAR?
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

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Yojimbob
Shas'Saal
Posts: 376

Re: EWO and Characters

Post#14 » Sep 05 2017 01:05

I agree with CDR and graga. Because it states that you may immediately shoot at them I'm fairly certain we are skipping the part where we are choosing targets where characters would be hidden. It also gives me the feeling they intend for us to be able to truly have an area denial with some of our big suits (hence the large points cost) in that we can punish people for using deepstrike close to us albeit with poor ballistic skill.

Foolish Jack
Shas'Saal
Posts: 5

Re: EWO and Characters

Post#15 » Sep 05 2017 06:10

I'm not going to play it as if I can target characters in my playgroup because they're a bunch of whiners, but I suspect that the EWO was intended to do the targeting for you. Especially because it does say "you may immediately shoot that unit as if it were your shooting phase", not "you may target that unit for an attack as if it were your shooting phase."

I'm glad to see the debate from both sides though. I very much appreciate everyone weighing in.

Foolish Jack
Shas'Saal
Posts: 5

Re: EWO and Characters

Post#16 » Sep 05 2017 06:27

Funny story. Browsing through the "Stepping into a New Edition of Warhammer 40k" FAQ/update/whatever, and I encountered this:

"Q: When can I target an enemy Character that has a Wounds characteristic of less than 10?
A: Such a Character can only be targeted in the Shooting phase if it is the nearest visible model to the firing model. You can target enemy Characters without restriction in the Psychic phase*, Charge phase, Fight phase, etc. You may also make shooting attacks at enemy Characters which occur outside the Shooting phase (i.e. when resolving Overwatch in the Charge phase)."

Clearly as the attack does not occur during the actual Shooting phase, EWO is exempt from the restrictions. I'm a little upset I missed this. I felt like I'd read through all of the FAQ's enough before coming here.

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Gragagrogog
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 385

Re: EWO and Characters

Post#17 » Sep 05 2017 06:53

Yea... whilst being persuasive as it's "official FAQ-ish", the above Q/A does not necessarily help, as it's unclear to what point does the "as if it was shooting phase" phrase apply. If the EWO worked just like interceptor in 7th (with the same "as if it was..."), where you'd pick targets yourself, I'd say you couldn't shoot chars...

Blinx
Shas'Saal
Posts: 13

Re: EWO and Characters

Post#18 » Sep 06 2017 02:50

CDR_Farsight wrote:You are missing the point. The EWO rule actively bypasses target selection whereas it does not actively bypass range and LoS. It is not an "all or nothing" situation. There is no choice in the targeting; therefore, you are not breaking the rule of CHOOSING TO TARGET a character. [Chosen] is the key word here...there is no choice whatsoever in how the EWO targets.

But that's what I'm saying, if it bypasses target selection then I don't have the targetting restrictions of LoS and Range. EWO just says if they arrive within 12'', not that I have to be able to see them. If there is no choice in targeting, I am not breaking the rule choosing to target a unit that I can't see and nothing stopping me from using my flamer at 10''.

I'm not agreeing that this is intended. I feel as though RAI would be as you are saying but RAW I'm not so sure.

CDR_Farsight wrote:For instance, there are a few AoE abilities that say "pick a point on the battlefield" everything within 3" of that point takes a mortal wound on a 4+. The model with that ability at no point says it can target characters. Are we to believe that characters are either immune to the ability or that you are not allowed to place the center point within 3" of a character because that model can't target characters?

I think you would agree that this ability would not require LoS? If so, why does EWO when neither of them make any reference to requiring it?

CDR_Farsight wrote:It's called an Early Warning OVERRIDE...as in it overrides the normal targeting of the model to target a threat it has detected appearing close by that the operator may not have detected. Does the signature of a character's teleportation look different than a regular terminator teleportation? Do characters flying in from above not show up on RADAR?

I agree that RAI it doesn't make sense.

Foolish Jack wrote:"Q: When can I target an enemy Character that has a Wounds characteristic of less than 10?
A: Such a Character can only be targeted in the Shooting phase if it is the nearest visible model to the firing model. You can target enemy Characters without restriction in the Psychic phase*, Charge phase, Fight phase, etc. You may also make shooting attacks at enemy Characters which occur outside the Shooting phase (i.e. when resolving Overwatch in the Charge phase)."


I agree with Gragagrogog in that 'As if it was' is ambiguous. Overwatch doesn't say 'as if it was' anymore like I'm pretty sure it did in 7th.

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