Shield Drone vs Heavy Bolter Hellfire command

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PeeJ
Shas'La
Shas'La
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Shield Drone vs Heavy Bolter Hellfire command

Post#1 » Sep 06 2017 05:33

So, pretty interesting discussion on rules going on over at the Tau sub-reddit, thought I'd bring it here as there tends to be a bit better and more civilised discussion here;

Marine Dev squad uses signum to fire a heavy bolter on 2+. Marine spends 1 command point to fire a hellfire round. Hellfire round lets a heavy bolter fire a single shot, and if it hits, it does D3 mortal wounds.

How does saviour protocols work with this? I'm unsure as it seems RAI is unclear and RAW could go either way IMO. Here is how I see it;

Normal Hit/Wound Process - Lascannon

  • Roll to hit
  • Roll to wound
  • Save Roll
  • Roll Damage
  • FNP roll per damage
  • Take Damage

Saviour Protocols Hit/Wound Process - Lascannon

  • Roll to hit
  • Roll to wound
  • Saviour Protocol
  • Roll Damage Auto 1 Mortal Wound
  • FNP roll per damage
  • Take Damage

Normal Hit/Wound Process - Railgun

  • Roll to hit
  • Roll to wound
  • Save Roll
  • Roll Damage (Which can include mortal wounds)
  • FNP roll per damage
  • Take Damage

Saviour Protocols Hit/Wound Process - Railgun

  • Roll to hit
  • Roll to wound
  • Saviour Protocol
  • Roll Damage (Which can include mortal wounds) Auto 1 Mortal Wound
  • FNP roll per damage
  • Take Damage

Normal Hit/Wound Process - Hellfire Round

  • Roll to hit
  • Auto wound
  • No Save Roll
  • Roll Damage (In the form of D3 mortal wounds)
  • FNP roll per damage
  • Take Damage

Saviour Protocols Hit/Wound Process - Hellfire Round

  • Roll to hit
  • Auto wound
  • Saviour Protocol
  • Roll Damage (In the form of D3 mortal wounds) Auto 1 Mortal Wound
  • FNP roll per damage
  • Take Damage

Frankly, I'm not sure that this is how it would work, but that's kind of the point, I think it probably needs an FAQ to clarify RAI.

Thoughts?

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Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3548

Re: Shield Drone vs Heavy Bolter Hellfire command

Post#2 » Sep 06 2017 05:39

It's d3 mortal wounds. For each wound you can activate the Saviour Protocol. So if he rolls for 2 mortal wounds you could sacrifice two Shield Drones (or one/none if the first manages its FnP rolls).

Not the Drones get the d3 wounds, the target unit does and then you activate the Protocols. So your order is not right. It would be more like this:

Normal Hit/Wound Process - Hellfire Round

  • Roll to hit
  • Roll d3 to determine the number of mortal wounds
  • Auto wound
  • No Save Roll
  • FNP roll per mortal wound you decided to pass to the Drones
  • Take Damage


Saviour Protocols Hit/Wound Process - Hellfire Round

  • Roll to hit
  • Roll d3 to determine the number of mortal wounds
  • Auto wound
  • Saviour Protocol
  • FNP roll per mortal wound you decided to pass to the Drones
  • Take Damage

PeeJ
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 102

Re: Shield Drone vs Heavy Bolter Hellfire command

Post#3 » Sep 06 2017 05:51

The bit I'm struggling with here is that it seems to be 1 hit that does D3 Mortal wounds as the damage, in the same way that a railgun can do mortal wounds as part of it's damage, which can be soaked by a single SP.

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Panzer
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Re: Shield Drone vs Heavy Bolter Hellfire command

Post#4 » Sep 06 2017 05:59

Where does it say the hit does d3 damage? That's completely interpretation on your part. The hit does d3 mortal wounds RAW which should be clear how it works.

The Railgun also doesn't do the Mortal wound as part of its damage. It gets triggered by its damage roll but its a seperate wound.

Blinx
Shas'Saal
Posts: 14

Re: Shield Drone vs Heavy Bolter Hellfire command

Post#5 » Sep 06 2017 06:02

I've always thought that the additional mortal wounds on the railgun have to be allocated separately. As they are separate (mortal) wounds you still have to allocate them, allowing saviour protocols on each separate (mortal) wound

PeeJ
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 102

Re: Shield Drone vs Heavy Bolter Hellfire command

Post#6 » Sep 06 2017 06:08

Blinx wrote:I've always thought that the additional mortal wounds on the railgun have to be allocated separately. As they are separate (mortal) wounds you still have to allocate them, allowing saviour protocols on each separate (mortal) wound


If that is the case, then my interpretation is completely out the window. Would still like to see an FAQ on it to get an official ruling on RAI though.

I think my issue is the fact that they have muddied 'Wound' to kind of mean more than one thing now, as in rolling to wound, a wound with multiple damage and mortal wounds.

Either way I'd err on the side of caution until there is a clarification, but I just thought it was interesting.

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Panzer
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Re: Shield Drone vs Heavy Bolter Hellfire command

Post#7 » Sep 06 2017 06:30

The meanings really aren't that different though.
You roll to wound. If that roll succeeds you dealt a wound. That's before saves. After saves there comes the damage. A wound can deal multiple damage.
A mortal wound is simply a wound you can't do saves against and as long as there's nothing written otherwise it deals only a single damage. And since you can do FnP effects against damage you can do it against the damage that comes from Mortal wounds as well.

The only confusing thing is when they talk about wounds in form of remaining health points (something they really should've re-named since they already are using the term "wound" for something else).

Blinx
Shas'Saal
Posts: 14

Re: Shield Drone vs Heavy Bolter Hellfire command

Post#8 » Sep 06 2017 06:36

Panzer wrote:The only confusing thing is when they talk about wounds in form of remaining health points (something they really should've re-named since they already are using the term "wound" for something else).

This.

When the rules say 'When a model in this unit loses a wound...' to me this is entirely different to wounds and mortal wounds. Losing a wound is about how much 'health' a model has left, nothing about what has just hit it.

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Panzer
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Posts: 3548

Re: Shield Drone vs Heavy Bolter Hellfire command

Post#9 » Sep 06 2017 06:39

Exactly. "Loosing a wound" = damage got dealt. After saves, after rolling for the amount of damage, after FnP like effects. It's something completely different than what they otherwise mean when talking about wounds when talking about attacks.

Anyway, that wasn't the problem here so it's only a nice little FYI. The problem here is that you confused wounds with damage and assumed Mortal wound = damage. ;)

PeeJ
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 102

Re: Shield Drone vs Heavy Bolter Hellfire command

Post#10 » Sep 06 2017 06:57

Panzer wrote:Exactly. "Loosing a wound" = damage got dealt. After saves, after rolling for the amount of damage, after FnP like effects. It's something completely different than what they otherwise mean when talking about wounds when talking about attacks.

Anyway, that wasn't the problem here so it's only a nice little FYI. The problem here is that you confused wounds with damage and assumed Mortal wound = damage. ;)


I did, however there is precedent, as previously mentioned with the railgun.

That weapons entry implies that mortal wounds are a special type of damage. When you roll to determine the mortal wounds on that weapon it is also referred to as damage. I think, off the top of my head, destroyer missiles are too. But I wouldn't expect to have to use 3 shield drones to tank a single destroyer missile either.

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Panzer
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Re: Shield Drone vs Heavy Bolter Hellfire command

Post#11 » Sep 06 2017 07:05

Yeah and as mentioned as well the Railgun doesn't work like that either.
The Mortal wounds get TRIGGERED by the damage roll. It's not part of the damage though. For example the Mortal wounds generated by a Railgun can still get tanked by Drones. Something that wouldn't be possible if it were just damage since then it would already be past the point of where one could activate Saviour Protocol.

It doesn't imply it's a special type of damage. It just tells us how and when the Mortal wound gets generated. A Mortal wound is a wound without saves, damage is damage.

PeeJ
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 102

Re: Shield Drone vs Heavy Bolter Hellfire command

Post#12 » Sep 06 2017 07:33

So potentially 4 drones to tank a railgun hit and 3 for a single destroyer missile?

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Panzer
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Re: Shield Drone vs Heavy Bolter Hellfire command

Post#13 » Sep 06 2017 07:37

If you roll for maximum amount of mortal wounds, yes.
Or you get lucky with the 5+ FnP of a Shield Drone and only need one Drone for it. ^^

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GND
Shas'La
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Re: Shield Drone vs Heavy Bolter Hellfire command

Post#14 » Sep 06 2017 09:48

I'll just pop in and say that railgun mortal wounds are triggered by a to-wound roll, not damage roll.

But otherwise Panzer is correct. A railgun that rolls a 6 to wound, and then another 6 for the number of mortal wounds, will generate a total of four wounds on the target unit. One with Ap -4 that deals D6 damage and three separate wounds you cannot save against that deal one damage each.

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Gragagrogog
Shas'La
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Re: Shield Drone vs Heavy Bolter Hellfire command

Post#15 » Sep 06 2017 10:01

How saviour protocol works with attacks that cause normal damage and mortal damage (or even just multiple mortal damage) has already been discussed to death in multiple threads...

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=26401

^This thread provides somewhat good summary.

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Panzer
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Re: Shield Drone vs Heavy Bolter Hellfire command

Post#16 » Sep 06 2017 10:24

GND wrote:I'll just pop in and say that railgun mortal wounds are triggered by a to-wound roll, not damage roll.

But otherwise Panzer is correct. A railgun that rolls a 6 to wound, and then another 6 for the number of mortal wounds, will generate a total of four wounds on the target unit. One with Ap -4 that deals D6 damage and three separate wounds you cannot save against that deal one damage each.

Ah right, I didn't bother re-checking whether it was the damage-roll or wound-roll to be honest. Thanks for the clarification.

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