An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

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T.Wiseau
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#19 » Jan 10 2018 12:55

JSJ is a toxic mechanic at it's core. Firing and then hiding behind LOS blocking terrain or firing short ranged weapons and then retreating out of the enemys maximum charge range doesn't make for very fun games.

I'd rather see that GW keeps going in the direction of the close quarters playstyle favored by the index. T'au already have the tools for this playstyle with Drones and Kroot to bubblewrap important units and tons of units that can flee from melee and still fire after.

As some have said I can totaly see JSJ being a strategem in an upcomming codex and that's fine. That way it can be used when needed the most but not spammed :smile:

A few points reduction as well as some fancy Sept rules is going to be more than enough to make T'au viable again as far as i'm concerned.
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Kael'yn
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#20 » Jan 10 2018 01:54

Loosing JSJ for T'au battlesuit and drones in 8th is like Guards loose their orders, Orks their waaagh or Nids their instincts. JSJ was part of what defined the original jetpacked battlesuits and drones.

No a mechanism solely to us, as Eldar jetbikes and Necron destroyers got the same ability in 7th IIRC. But they are few and no other races of 40k than us (eldar probably) are said to be prone to redeploy of not stand ground for nothing. So JSJ was totally inline with our fluff (either to redeploy or if you've got onager, dawn blade, flamers or failsafe detonator, jump ahead). The FLY ability that replace is something poorer tactically speaking.

T'au lacks CQC and Psy abilities, so removing or thinning some of our features (JSJ, markerlights, ...) is part of things that puts me out of 8th games so far, waiting for a codex to see the way GW wants T'au to be played.
Commander (or drone) spam, suicidal breachers, robotchicken pieplates fury, is not what I want to be on even ground with some armies and have fun in game.

I wouldn't mind the disparition of JSJ if the ruleset of 8th would allow "redeploy" movement in assault phase (so everyone could do that and FLY models would get some bonus).

But 40k is a ruleset designed to have CQC even if most of models could wipe away other from a distance ... So you stay on your ground even if you are jumped over by berzerk serial killers. Hopefully, this will make battle "more dynamic" (aka "look at that armies crashing on each other, splitting and crashing again, this is fun !") and "quicker to play" ("Oh, I was wiped out in 2 round. Let's play another game, I am eager to get the initiative this time").

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Arka0415
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#21 » Jan 10 2018 07:07

Kael'yn wrote:Loosing JSJ for T'au battlesuit and drones in 8th is like Guards loose their orders, Orks their waaagh or Nids their instincts. JSJ was part of what defined the original jetpacked battlesuits and drones.

I agree. What matters is that it was nearly a faction-defining trait, and was removed without compensating our battlesuits for the loss of durability and range.

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Temennigru
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#22 » Jan 11 2018 07:58

If they are not returning with JSJ, I would welcome a 4+ WS and decent melee weapons. Tau are not supposed to be this crappy in CC. There is an extensive history of tau using melee weapons (onager gauntlet, fusion swords, etc.), but that is just not reflected in our rules.
And we have 2 game phases that are completely useless to us. The assault phase and psychic phase (not considering our single melee-oriented unit who is also a character). That is just wasting resources without gaining anything back.

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AnonAmbientLight
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#23 » Jan 11 2018 11:51

Arka0415 wrote: and was removed without compensating our battlesuits for the loss of durability and range.


What is this lack of compensation?

+1W +1T. Fly keyword (free hit and run). 8in movement, up from 6in. Ability to advance and still shoot at normal BS with wargear or markerlights. Drones become arguably more reliable since they can take wounds at will instead of having to "be in front".

JSJ does nothing to help you survive if you have no where to use it and if it fails on you. JSJ doesn't help you if your opponent has indirect fire or has you covered.

Compare it to other JSJ units from other armies.

Windriders gain +1W and go down to a 4+ armor save. Their trade off is being able to move 22'' in the movement phase if they choose to advance. They have fly too, which I guess is decent. They are much weaker for not having JSJ, and worse of all they got no compensation.

Warpspiders don't get any kind of stat change that I can see. How they move has changed. When they move that can "teleport" and move 4D6 with fly but cannot advance or charge. Their classic flicker jump (JSJ on crack) is now just a -1 to hit modifier against the shooting. Roll a 2D6, on a 2 the unit loses a model. They have fly, which helps them get out of combat. They are much weaker for not having their ridiculous JSJ mechanic with those warp packs.

War Walkers used to be able to get a wargear item called "star engines" that essentially gave them the ability to JSJ. This allowed them to pop out behind cover, shoot, then scoot. Very powerful for the type of armaments they can have.
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Arka0415
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#24 » Jan 12 2018 04:20

AnonAmbientLight wrote:What is this lack of compensation?

+1W +1T. Fly keyword (free hit and run). 8in movement, up from 6in. Ability to advance and still shoot at normal BS with wargear or markerlights. Drones become arguably more reliable since they can take wounds at will instead of having to "be in front".

We got plus +1T (good) and +1W (less meaningful because weapons do multiple damage), and +2" move (less meaningful because of loss of JSJ), and a massive corresponding increase in points. Drones die more easily, advancing and shooting is not a unique trait of battlesuits. JSJ was faction-defining trait that increased durability and suitability, and we got +1T and +2" movement? That's a lack of compensation.

XV8s used to be really durable due to JSJ. They are not only significantly weaker, flimsier, and slower, but they also cost a ton more points.

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Studioworks
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#25 » Jan 12 2018 06:19

We have good mobility with Battlesuits and a lots of our best weapons are Assault weapons. With just 3 markers we can shoot normally after advancing. It's a good bonus.

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Temennigru
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#26 » Jan 12 2018 05:24

Studioworks wrote:We have good mobility with Battlesuits and a lots of our best weapons are Assault weapons. With just 3 markers we can shoot normally after advancing. It's a good bonus.

Mobility doesn't mean moving forward a lot.
It's also being able to move back after you've done what you wanted. There is no point to moving, say, 20" to be in the middle of enemy territory if you can't move back afterwards.

Ash87
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#27 » Jan 12 2018 05:38

Yeah, this is a function of playing with people who didn't have a really well put together set of terrain... I never used JSJ with hard cover? I used the extra move to get away from Combat. Which, I can still kind of do with the fly keyword. If anything, from the few games I've played (So I don't believe I'm any kind of expert here), it's easier to do now that I have drones eating wounds and can just walk out of combat without a problem after someone tried to charge me.

From battle reports I've seen, with the prevalence of -1 to hit rolls being army wide, our accuracy boost is really what we need to become that much more competitive.

...Also a sniper unit that doesn't blow, would be great.

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CDR_Farsight
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#28 » Jan 12 2018 06:16

Temennigru wrote:
Studioworks wrote:We have good mobility with Battlesuits and a lots of our best weapons are Assault weapons. With just 3 markers we can shoot normally after advancing. It's a good bonus.

Mobility doesn't mean moving forward a lot.
It's also being able to move back after you've done what you wanted. There is no point to moving, say, 20" to be in the middle of enemy territory if you can't move back afterwards.



Finally, somebody gets it. Mobility for the Tau was never defined as "how far you can move." It is defined as "where do you end your turn before the enemy gets their reply."

With the exact same weapon ranges the loss of JSJ and the ability to advance and shoot means absolutely nothing. I have't had a game yet where my suits didnt have somthing within 18" to shoot at.

In 8th, we end our turn in exactly the same place we would have ended in 7th if they had taken away JSJ there (which we would have been up in arms about if someone had taken it away mid-7th so we should be up in arms about it in 8th too)...leaving us horribly open to counter assaults. The +1 wound and toughness increase moderately compensates for new multi-wound and -AP modifying weapon mechanics, but even there it falls short. Additionally, most assault oriented armies now have even more means to cover that ground faster than in 7th as well.
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

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FoxZz
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#29 » Jan 12 2018 06:20

Beside the shoot and scoot tactic, JSJ was allowing suits to move 12" which is very useful to go from one part of the map to the other. Current 8" is a step down.
Maybe a good compromise could be to increase their movement, they have thrusters after all. 10" would be better.

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CDR_Farsight
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#30 » Jan 12 2018 07:04

FoxZz wrote:Beside the shoot and scoot tactic, JSJ was allowing suits to move 12" which is very useful to go from one part of the map to the other. Current 8" is a step down.
Maybe a good compromise could be to increase their movement, they have thrusters after all. 10" would be better.


That doesn't get to the core of why losing JSJ hurts us so bad. I don't care if the give me a 20" move. The opponent still starts his turn within assault range. I want to be able to shoot more than just single fire plasma or overpriced missile pods and make him chase me down instead of just hoping I have enough drones around to weather an assault. JSJ fit the fluff more and was a critical part of the Tau battlesuit identity. Melta half-range and flamer range were always a gamble, but we used to reliably be able to pump rapid fire plasma into an enemy and get out to the edges of assault range.
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

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AnonAmbientLight
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#31 » Jan 13 2018 12:06

Arka0415 wrote:
AnonAmbientLight wrote:What is this lack of compensation?

+1W +1T. Fly keyword (free hit and run). 8in movement, up from 6in. Ability to advance and still shoot at normal BS with wargear or markerlights. Drones become arguably more reliable since they can take wounds at will instead of having to "be in front".

We got plus +1T (good) and +1W (less meaningful because weapons do multiple damage), and +2" move (less meaningful because of loss of JSJ), and a massive corresponding increase in points. Drones die more easily, advancing and shooting is not a unique trait of battlesuits. JSJ was faction-defining trait that increased durability and suitability, and we got +1T and +2" movement? That's a lack of compensation.

XV8s used to be really durable due to JSJ. They are not only significantly weaker, flimsier, and slower, but they also cost a ton more points.


To be clear, the list I made was a counter to your post that said "We got no compensation." When someone says, "I have no compensation" it means they have gotten nothing in return.

So the goalposts are presumably moved to a "lack" of compensation, but you explain it in literally the worst cherry picked way.

If you're going to argue that +1T is good but +1W is bad, then you should point out that in general gaining or losing +1T doesn't help much in most things. Darkstrider can lower the T of a unit by 1 but it often won't change shooting outcomes, as an example. Also to suggest that +1W is "less meaningful" is laughable. Extra wounds is always welcome because its one extra wound that you otherwise did not have. If that's your outlook why even bother playing any multi-wound units at all?

You then go on to single out +2'' movement being less meaningful because of a loss of JSJ forgetting that I am listing ALL THE THINGS that Crisis Suits have in 8th that they did not have before in exchange for JSJ....

I don't even know HOW you got on that Drones die more easily while just ignoring the fact that you can use drones more effectively now than you ever could in previous editions.

Advancing and shooting is something that Crisis Suits did not have in previous editions. You either ran, or you shot in the shooting phase. You couldn't do both.

JSJ was not a faction-defining trait because other armies did it too, like Eldar. As I listed too, Eldar lost their JSJ and barely got anything in return.


Then you go into point costs, and we both know that those point costs are likely not staying at that level.

You also didn't point out or even address the point that JSJ is only useful in situations where you can actually, you know, JSJ. In all the situations where JSJ either fails or isn't applicable, you'll be glad that the buffs you have currently exist.

Keep in mind too that NO ARMY IN 8TH can do JSJ anymore. It's not like T'au are being singled out, nor are they getting shafted. Crisis Suits and Stealth suits got a nice buff with their lack of JSJ. Hell, Stealth Suits got +1T, +1W and -1 to hit in the shooting phase. Or is that "less meaningful because weapons do multiple damage"

And last point on this, it will undoubtedly be a stratagem. So you'll still be able to do it when you need it.

You're not usually pessimistic on topics like these or maybe I have not been paying attention.
Sky IS Falling, T'au WILL Suck, Sell Me Your Models

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Arka0415
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#32 » Jan 13 2018 12:44

AnonAmbientLight wrote:So the goalposts are presumably moved to a "lack" of compensation, but you explain it in literally the worst cherry picked way.

...

You're not usually pessimistic on topics like these or maybe I have not been paying attention.

I was voicing points I thought were relevant, probably didn't warrant this level of response. I apologize, but if you have an issue with my discourse I welcome the discussion, but please bring it up in PM.

AnonAmbientLight wrote:If you're going to argue that +1T is good but +1W is bad, then you should point out that in general gaining or losing +1T doesn't help much in most things.

Gaining one point in toughness is doubly-positive for XV8s, not only are we harder to wound, but the wounding table itself changed, meaning that only a few weapons wound us on 2+ (Railguns, Vindicator cannons, etc.), when in previous editions many weapons (Lascannons, Lances, etc.) not only wounded our XV8s on 2+, but also caused Instant Death effects.

AnonAmbientLight wrote:Also to suggest that +1W is "less meaningful" is laughable. Extra wounds is always welcome because its one extra wound that you otherwise did not have. If that's your outlook why even bother playing any multi-wound units at all?

True, extra wounds are always welcome, but it's somewhat of a zero-sum buff. The weapons that used to delete all of our wounds via Instand Death (again, Lascannons etc.) still have a high chance of removing all of our wounds with a single chance. It's not exactly a +50% durability increase as the characteristic increase implies.

AnonAmbientLight wrote:You then go on to single out +2'' movement being less meaningful because of a loss of JSJ forgetting that I am listing ALL THE THINGS that Crisis Suits have in 8th that they did not have before in exchange for JSJ. Advancing and shooting is something that Crisis Suits did not have in previous editions. You either ran, or you shot in the shooting phase. You couldn't do both.

True, XV8s did get a number of benefits in 8th Edition that they didn't previously have. And that's great! The 8" movement is a nice benefit. However, these benefits (at least in my opinion) don't restore the incredible durability and tactical versatility that JSJ offered.

AnonAmbientLight wrote:JSJ was not a faction-defining trait because other armies did it too, like Eldar. As I listed too, Eldar lost their JSJ and barely got anything in return.

This was a later development though. Eldar getting JSJ was another ability that started with Tau and was slowly spread to other armies, like non-vehicles firing multiple weapons and split-firing (the benefits of the old Multi-Tracker and Target Lock, respectively). Maybe the Eldar gaining JSJ was what caused people to realize it was too powerful?

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Draaen
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#33 » Jan 13 2018 02:06

One tactic that was lost due to JSJ and cover changes was that I would put a crisis suit squad clumped up behind a devilfish. The devilfish would move forward and then the crisis suits would jump out shoot and then hop behind the devilfish getting cover saves. It was something I could plan for and do miss a bit. It felt cool and like something somebody might actually do.

While everyone got the bonus crisis suits are able to fire all weapons instead of just 2 so that's another benefit we got that is not insignificant. While not a new change crisis suits can carry and fire multiples of the same weapon. So crisis suits have come a long way from the initial release where they desperately needed JSJ.

Not for nothing I also think my opponents enjoy the game more now that JSJ is gone even if the game is very one sided in my favor.
All empires fall you just have to know where to push

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Temennigru
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#34 » Jan 13 2018 04:35

AnonAmbientLight wrote:To be clear, the list I made was a counter to your post that said "We got no compensation." When someone says, "I have no compensation" it means they have gotten nothing in return.

So the goalposts are presumably moved to a "lack" of compensation, but you explain it in literally the worst cherry picked way.

bla bla bla...

And last point on this, it will undoubtedly be a stratagem. So you'll still be able to do it when you need it.

You're not usually pessimistic on topics like these or maybe I have not been paying attention.


You can't really say that +1 T and +1 wound is better because the entire damage system was changed. If you got hit by a melta in 7e you got 1 wound. Now you get 4 on average. The +T and +W was supposed to compensate for the DAMAGE INCREASE IN WEAPONS (even though it effectively REDUCES our durability in relation to 7e, when we could survive multiple high powered shots, since we were not vehicles).
And saying that no army can JSJ, so it is OK that we do not have it is like taking away ALL the tanks in the game and saying the astra militarum players can't complain because everyone lost their tanks.
JSJ was one of the core mechanics EXCLUSIVELY to our army (meaning no other army had it in such a widespread way), and we did not get any new mechanics to make up for it. As a matter of fact, most of our army was NERFED in other indirect ways with things like AA guns that get +1 to hit against all the units that had JSJ before.
And a JSJ stratagem is just awful. Would you rather spend 1 command point to reroll a key roll or to maybe move a couple of inches back just to have your enemy chase you and still shoot you? Especially since the cover system was changed. It's now very hard to get cover saves, especially with bulky models. JSJ was never an EXCELENT OMG WHAT A GREAT WAY TO INSTA-WIN THE GAME mechanic. Stratagems need to be like that. Compare that to the ad mech guaranteed explosion for vehicles for 1CC or the ork "get extra shots on a 6" that can both wipe out hordes of enemies. Those deserve to be stratagems. Moving a couple of inches out of turn does not.

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J'Kaara Nan
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#35 » Jan 14 2018 12:00

Compensation indicates that something was received in exchange for loss, but a single increase against two single decreases results in a net loss. Slightly improved characteristics do not account for the loss of a defining tactical mechanic as well as seeing comparative point increases out of proportion to the changes.

Simply put, a nerf. While the fact is that points may drop at codex release, they could also remain high or even increase, and we simply don't know. My research on a few other codex's in similar "style" to us shows that most point changes are small in percentage. This may be incorrect overall, but thus far it seems to be a trend. However as my title suggested, this is an appeal for it before that codex releases, and speculating at what might be a future exchange is pointless.

To imply that JSJ was just some commonplace occurrence is also absurd. Not only did it originate as a widespread army mechanic with the Tau, but Tau have always had a monopoly over it as well as supremacy utilizing it. If you disagree, then explain why JSJ is literally the most commonly associated word and mechanic to Tau other than, perhaps, the railgun. Tau are the JSJ army. The battlesuit is fearsome to its foes, not because it has "lots'a guns that shoot real gud."

The battlesuit is the most iconic Tau unit, and for a large percentage of Tau players, the key driver that initiated collecting Tau. The agile battlesuit, striking from the shadows and then pouncing out of reach. Used in its most basic form it was just extra movement and a way to avoid assault. With practice it allowed a player to outwit an opponent, by leveraging movement rather than damage as most armies do.

Most of the armies that eventually borrowed JSJ from the Tau, either did it in fairly less common ways, to the point that while perhaps you might sometimes, never did you always see them use it. Maybe they didn't take Eldar Jetbikes, maybe that unit never needed to, etc etc. Until its removal, I had never seen a Tau army not use JSJ, and I'd wager most armies used it a lot. It's like saying that the bolter and power armor combo is not synonymous with the Space Marine, because other armies now have bolters and power armor that aren't Space Marines.

I'd like to address comments about it being a "toxic mechanic" and it slowing down games, but they don't warrant a whole paragraph. Simply, what a strange word as toxic to apply to it with no real evidence, and there is no way anyone really believes that an army moving a few times in the assault phase could be longer than instead going through actual assault phase actions in their entirety. Or do we deserve to lose all of that phase as well, in addition to the Psychic Phase? Oops, there I went and wrote a paragraph.


Clearly, however, the issue isn't one sided with everyone wanting the same thing. There might be cases of people very new to Tau, players who much prefer gun-line Tau, and even possibly some people who came to Tau when they first became the "Power Codex" for competitive reasons. I do disagree on it being a command point, as this doesn't really make sense fluff wise. The jetpack is a piece of equipment, and the JSJ mechanic has always been an attribute of that equipment, not a one-off occasional trick. A compromise might be in order, in simply changing how it functions. I'm not a rules writer, but here's two examples of how I could see things changing for battlesuits and drones.

Keyword: Jetpack(Tau)
Models equipped with a Jetpack(Tau) have +2 to their movement, up to a maximum of 20". Rather than initiating an assault or participating in an assault, such a model may use any remaining movement in the Fight Phase to reposition. Models with the keyword Jetpack(Tau) that initiate assault against <INFANTRY> without keyword <FLY> suffer -1 to hit rolls on the first turn of the Fight Phase. Models with this keyword may also move less than their full movement in the movement phase and Advance.

Summation: The jetpack increases movement, and rather than movement in the assault phase being a guaranteed extra movement, it becomes a wager of total movement being two inches more than our current movement and two inches less than our previous maximum movement. Now there is some actual immediate trade-off, in that a player must choose between more movement in one phase and less in the other. Do you need to be cautious or want to be bold? The penalty to hit smaller, more rooted infanty on the first round, as the battlesuit flings itself through the air at its target.


Addition of Keyword: Jetpack(Tau) to Tactical Drones and Tau Drones
+
Rule: Tactical Agility
Models with the RuleTactical Agility may adopt a single <TAU> unit with a Drone Controller as its parent unit within 3" once per turn. If it does so, it loses the rule Savior Protocols for all other <TAU> units other than its parent unit until both are destroyed or it changes its parent unit, and gains that units maximum movement profile. From this point on the drone unit must remain within six inches of the parent unit.

Summation: Battlesuits and Drones become more in line with each other, while also making minor limitations on their ability to protect other units. Drones can then choose to move on their own or tag along with a unit.
Enclave of the 7 Swords: 12-5-2

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Bloodknife92
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#36 » Jan 14 2018 07:06

I'd like to add some discussion points that I found on reddit regarding this topic, but before so, I want to say that I am for JSJ, and I'll give a good, balanced example toward the end.

From what I read, almost any unit with some form of a jump pack or jet pack have a larger move distance than our mid-size and smaller suits. Necron Destroyers and Space Marine Interceptors can move 10. Any form of Assault Marine, Gargoyles, Stormboyz and Chaos Raptors can move 12. Drukhari Hellions and Craftworlds Swooping Hawks can move 14. And we, the high tech military force that FAR outshines the rest of the galaxy, get the short end of the stick at 8? Sure, we got +1 toughness and wounds, but we lost a LOT of capability. It seems extremely unfair that we should have such a disappointing move speed. I, personally, think that our small and medium suits should get 10 movement and our large ones should start at 14 movement.

Onto JS. Yes, it can have devastating effects when used correctly, but so can anything when used well with good dice rolls. Here's ahat I propose is a fair and balanced way to implement Jump-shoot-jump:
It should be an ability given individually to all our battlesuits. It should allow us to move HALF of the model's current move characteristic in the charge phase in any direction that doesn't end within 1 of an enemy model.

A full move is too unfair. 1D6 can end depressingly badly and is way too random for our advanced tech. 2D6 can end either exceptionally well or exceptionally badly, and is once again too random. Therefore, half of the move characteristic (diminishing as bigger models are hurt) is a fair middle ground. Right now, our army is a mix between militarum with higher costs and less special weapons, and space marines with worse BS and almost no ability in combat. I love Tau for their differwnces from other armies, not their similarities.

That being said, I've been faithful to Tau for 11 years, and regardless of what butchering GW does to us, I'll remain faithful. I love the Tau, even outside of dice rolling.

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