Tau A.I. and engram nuerochips

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comm_nagrom
Shas
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Tau A.I. and engram nuerochips

Post#1 » Feb 06 2018 08:20

I have a few lore related questions for the assembled brothers of the Tau'va.

Firstly, exactly how advanced is tau artificial intelligence? I know drones are effectively animal levels of intelligence with basic understanding of how to use their various equipment but how much further have tau advanced their AI technology?

Secondly, what exactly do engram neurochips contain? I know the puretide engram neurochip contains a sliver of commander puretide's tactical acumen but could one conceivable use an engram neurochip to completely preserve a tau's entire personality?

Naturally this leads to my final question: Could one, utilizing engram neurochip and advanced A.I. technology, create artificial "Tau" with mechanical bodies and A.I. tapping into the memories contained in an engram neurochip?

I know this is all crazy speculation but I have an idea to create a commander that is actually a highly advanced A.I with the memories of an ancient commander.

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Arka0415
Shas'Vre
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Re: Tau A.I. and engram nuerochips

Post#2 » Feb 06 2018 08:47

comm_nagrom wrote:Naturally this leads to my final question: Could one, utilizing engram neurochip and advanced A.I. technology, create artificial "Tau" with mechanical bodies and A.I. tapping into the memories contained in an engram neurochip?

I know this is all crazy speculation but I have an idea to create a commander that is actually a highly advanced A.I with the memories of an ancient commander.

Look no further! This is very possible with Tau technology, and in fact already exists:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ob%27lotai_9-0

Engrams are basiclly "copies" of an individual's memories and personality. The Puretide Engram offers tactical acumen, while something like Ob'lotai's engram is a copy of his entire personality. An Engram implanted into a living Tau tends to really mess with them psychologically (check out all the harmful effects of the Puretide Engram Neurochip), while a standalone AI engram like Ob'lotai isn't quite the same as the original- it's a bit more robotic.

comm_nagrom
Shas
Posts: 33

Re: Tau A.I. and engram nuerochips

Post#3 » Feb 06 2018 09:06

Huh I had not expected that to be so simple. I never got the farsight enclaves book cause I had quit 40k by the time it came out but I may have to see if I can find a copy somewhere if for nothing less than the fluff.

Now I do have another question. Is this a mostly farsight enclaves thing? I can't imagine the ethereal caste would be very happy about effectively bringing the dead back to life.

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Arka0415
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Re: Tau A.I. and engram nuerochips

Post#4 » Feb 06 2018 09:21

comm_nagrom wrote:Now I do have another question. Is this a mostly farsight enclaves thing? I can't imagine the ethereal caste would be very happy about effectively bringing the dead back to life.

As far as I know, the only full-AI engram is Ob'lotai. However, seeing as the Tau Empire has no issue with the Puretide Engram Neurochip, I don't think the Earth Caste would particularly care, seeing as they invented engram technology in the first place.

However, adding in a "Tau under this AI's command see it as unnatural and possibly blasphemous" twist would make for cool army narrative!

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Beerson
Shas'Saal
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Re: Tau A.I. and engram nuerochips

Post#5 » Feb 06 2018 10:52

Apart from engrams, the ghostkeel battlesuit features actual AI advanced enough to fight on its own if it is needed to bring its injured pilot to safety

But thank you for reminding this part of the lore to me, gonna convert me a flatline commander out of one of the suits I'm about to build

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TauMan
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Re: Tau A.I. and engram nuerochips

Post#6 » Feb 06 2018 10:54

comm_nagrom wrote:Firstly, exactly how advanced is tau artificial intelligence? I know drones are effectively animal levels of intelligence with basic understanding of how to use their various equipment but how much further have tau advanced their AI technology?


It has always been said that the Tau A.I. are fully sentient, and therefore true artificial intelligence. However their intelligence level is that of a "pterra squirrel" whatever that is? The Tau have of course programmable robots as well.

comm_nagrom wrote:Naturally this leads to my final question: Could one, utilizing engram neurochip and advanced A.I. technology, create artificial "Tau" with mechanical bodies and A.I. tapping into the memories contained in an engram neurochip?

I know this is all crazy speculation but I have an idea to create a commander that is actually a highly advanced A.I with the memories of an ancient commander.


Ha-ha, beat you too it! :D You can guess all of this happens in the Farsight Enclaves. My Shas'o has a complete mechanical body with his consciousness transferred to a positronic brain. Shas'O'Xutka't'shova had more and more of his body parts replaced by augmentations, until he became a cyborg. Finally he was "killed"; and Farsight's friend O'Vesa, turned him in to a android. He had his complete mind transferred to the artificial mind, inside the android body.

Another member here Calmsword, who writes for the Into Silence series, has come up with an complete artificial electronic life form called Hololiths (he has another name too, which I can't recall). That became sentient within the confines of the Tau internet, and the multiple super computers; much like the artificial life form does in the original anime movies Ghost in the Shell.

Funny, there is another ongoing discussion thread about cybernetic implants and the GITS technology here:
5th Sphere Technology: Ghost in the Shell?

Now, the question for you is: Does your Shas'O reside in the Enclaves or the Tau Empire? I kind of don't think the Empire would really go for that?

TauMan
PS Have a story idea submitted to Black Library that deals with artificial consciousness, or preserved living consciousness; but...can't talk about it till I know where they buy the story. ;)
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Watcher on the wall
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Re: Tau A.I. and engram nuerochips

Post#7 » Feb 07 2018 02:48

And linked to this... Why isn't Tau AI more advanced and why don't we see more of it? Even if we assume it was at not too advanced levels in 7th edition, you might expect to the technology have advanced a long way in the ~150 years since then. (In comparison, look at how far we've come in roughly 80 years.)
Is there a good reason for this or have GW not thought it through?

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Shas'O Ora
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Re: Tau A.I. and engram nuerochips

Post#8 » Feb 07 2018 03:30

Watcher on the wall wrote:And linked to this... Why isn't Tau AI more advanced and why don't we see more of it? Even if we assume it was at not too advanced levels in 7th edition, you might expect to the technology have advanced a long way in the ~150 years since then. (In comparison, look at how far we've come in roughly 80 years.)
Is there a good reason for this or have GW not thought it through?


Even though it is said that drones are not seen as expendable but as equal comrades, anyway they are often used for risky missions or have the main task to protect the other Tau. In last consequence by self sacrifice.

At the moment we have drones being able to act on the battlefield like sentient soldiers.
Why should you improve the AI to a point where it really starts thinking on his own and at the end even thinks about disobeying orders?

Tau'va!

PeeJ
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Re: Tau A.I. and engram nuerochips

Post#9 » Feb 07 2018 05:29

I've been considering coming up with an AI commander for my own force too. I love the idea (and stole it from Ob'Lotai)

It just strikes me as something that the T'au should be doing all over the shop. Never mind putting commanders in stasis. AI them and have 100 Farsights, or 100 Shadowsuns all active in different warzones at once.

I kind of hope there's something in the lore in the new codex about them doing this, or having a new SC who is basically an engram loaded into a specialised suit.

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Beerson
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Re: Tau A.I. and engram nuerochips

Post#10 » Feb 07 2018 05:33

Watcher on the wall wrote:And linked to this... Why isn't Tau AI more advanced and why don't we see more of it? Even if we assume it was at not too advanced levels in 7th edition, you might expect to the technology have advanced a long way in the ~150 years since then. (In comparison, look at how far we've come in roughly 80 years.)
Is there a good reason for this or have GW not thought it through?

Tau have AI capable of controlling specialist suit in combat, what more you want? Not every race is dumb enough to create men of steel to let them rebel you know

Even if the tau did not worry about this themselves, they still have enough interaction with empire and rouge traders to notice they avoid AI and resent tau AI such as drones, they gotta ask themselves why

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Arka0415
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Re: Tau A.I. and engram nuerochips

Post#11 » Feb 07 2018 05:55

Beerson wrote:
Watcher on the wall wrote:And linked to this... Why isn't Tau AI more advanced and why don't we see more of it? Even if we assume it was at not too advanced levels in 7th edition, you might expect to the technology have advanced a long way in the ~150 years since then. (In comparison, look at how far we've come in roughly 80 years.)
Is there a good reason for this or have GW not thought it through?

Tau have AI capable of controlling specialist suit in combat, what more you want? Not every race is dumb enough to create men of steel to let them rebel you know

Even if the tau did not worry about this themselves, they still have enough interaction with empire and rouge traders to notice they avoid AI and resent tau AI such as drones, they gotta ask themselves why

I think the issue is more that we don't see a whole lot of it. Drones have limited AI, Ghostkeels have some AI, I assume big things like Stormsurges have AI assistants to help with targeting all of those weapons. You'd just think there'd be more though.

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Beerson
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Re: Tau A.I. and engram nuerochips

Post#12 » Feb 07 2018 06:39

Arka0415 wrote:I think the issue is more that we don't see a whole lot of it. Drones have limited AI, Ghostkeels have some AI, I assume big things like Stormsurges have AI assistants to help with targeting all of those weapons. You'd just think there'd be more though.

Well lets look at the possible aplications

XV8/88 suits - allready expensive, but not enough to justify putting backup AI in it, also in high demand by shas'ui to pilot them so no need for engram pilots

Enforcer/Coldstar - very limited amount to the point that there isn't enough of them for all shas'o, let alone shas'el, so no opportunity for engrams, also the suits are not expensive enough to justify raising the price by featuring AI

Riptides - now here we should be seeing a backup AI, and the suit is tactical enough to justify engram, but that wouldn't interact well with the mortal wounds from reactor radiation on the tabletop, though we might see that changing around 9th-10th ed

Stormsurge - now this one is a bit split, it is a huge, very rare and expensive, complicated suit, but it already has multiple operators, so there should be an AI, but doesn't need to be at the same time, also not very tactically challenging to use engram in

Hammerhead variants - multicrew vehicles, about as expensive as coldstar I'd say, not in need of backup, not many engram candidates (we might see one out of longstrike, but I would presume only after his death)

You might say that putting an AI in a suit shouldn't take much space, or be too expensive as they are featured in drones, though less advanced, but at that point you can put in hardwired ATS instead

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Shas'O Ora
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Re: Tau A.I. and engram nuerochips

Post#13 » Feb 07 2018 07:20

Just want to mention that putting AI in stuff not always improves it!
There are a lot of examples where the crew can be hampered by AI cause it can not always adapt to new situations as fast as a sentient pilot.
No dought that AI is very valuable in assisting the pilot but completly replacing it?
Last edited by Shas'O Ora on Feb 07 2018 07:30, edited 1 time in total.

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Arka0415
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Re: Tau A.I. and engram nuerochips

Post#14 » Feb 07 2018 07:27

Shas'O Ora wrote:Just want to mention that putting AI in stuff not always improves it!

Hmm, I can't think of any situations where using AI could go wrong though...

Image

comm_nagrom
Shas
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Re: Tau A.I. and engram nuerochips

Post#15 » Feb 07 2018 09:20

It's funny that you guys mention A.I. and rebelling against their creators cause that's exactly what I was going with for my commander and the A.I. "Tau" program used to create him. Similar to the Purifiers from StarCraft 2, where they realized that despite them being basically living tau the empire regards them as tools and so they rebel and become a splinter faction. And everyone knows splinter factions all end up in the enclaves!

I also thought it would make a good excuse for an all battlesuit army with almost no fire warriors (the only living models in the army would be sympathisers To the A.I.'s plight)

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Arka0415
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Re: Tau A.I. and engram nuerochips

Post#16 » Feb 07 2018 09:35

comm_nagrom wrote:It's funny that you guys mention A.I. and rebelling against their creators cause that's exactly what I was going with for my commander and the A.I. "Tau" program used to create him. Similar to the Purifiers from StarCraft 2, where they realized that despite them being basically living tau the empire regards them as tools and so they rebel and become a splinter faction. And everyone knows splinter factions all end up in the enclaves!

I also thought it would make a good excuse for an all battlesuit army with almost no fire warriors (the only living models in the army would be sympathisers To the A.I.'s plight)

Rebelling because an empire regards them as tools huh? Shas'o Br'ackman would be pleased!

Image

(Sorry, I'll stop with the pictures now!)

Watcher on the wall
Shas'Saal
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Re: Tau A.I. and engram nuerochips

Post#17 » Feb 07 2018 03:46

Shas'O Ora wrote:At the moment we have drones being able to act on the battlefield like sentient soldiers.
Why should you improve the AI to a point where it really starts thinking on his own and at the end even thinks about disobeying orders?

I don't think it would really be a danger, if you keep the AI focused enough. If you make it so that all it does is evaluate the optimum way to destroy enemies, it is not just that they won't think about disobeying orders, but that they have literally no way of even starting to think about disobeying. I'm not really envisaging AI citizens, but questioning why AI soldiers (drones) aren't better at what they do - I think the issue with the Men of Iron was that they were created to be equal to humans intellectually - and so had the capacity to turn on their creators.

Beerson wrote:Even if the tau did not worry about this themselves, they still have enough interaction with empire and rouge traders to notice they avoid AI and resent tau AI such as drones, they gotta ask themselves why

Do you really think the Tau would not investigate something just because elements of the Imperium, which they despise as being (for the most part hidebound and ignorant) don't? Not to mention that the Imperium itself probably doesn't know why it shouldn't construct AI, it is just one of the rules that they follow blindly.

Beerson wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:I think the issue is more that we don't see a whole lot of it. Drones have limited AI, Ghostkeels have some AI, I assume big things like Stormsurges have AI assistants to help with targeting all of those weapons. You'd just think there'd be more though.

Well lets look at the possible aplications

XV8/88 suits - allready expensive, but not enough to justify putting backup AI in it, also in high demand by shas'ui to pilot them so no need for engram pilots

Enforcer/Coldstar - very limited amount to the point that there isn't enough of them for all shas'o, let alone shas'el, so no opportunity for engrams, also the suits are not expensive enough to justify raising the price by featuring AI

Riptides - now here we should be seeing a backup AI, and the suit is tactical enough to justify engram, but that wouldn't interact well with the mortal wounds from reactor radiation on the tabletop, though we might see that changing around 9th-10th ed

Stormsurge - now this one is a bit split, it is a huge, very rare and expensive, complicated suit, but it already has multiple operators, so there should be an AI, but doesn't need to be at the same time, also not very tactically challenging to use engram in

Hammerhead variants - multicrew vehicles, about as expensive as coldstar I'd say, not in need of backup, not many engram candidates (we might see one out of longstrike, but I would presume only after his death)

You might say that putting an AI in a suit shouldn't take much space, or be too expensive as they are featured in drones, though less advanced, but at that point you can put in hardwired ATS instead

Aren't there more uses for AI than as mechanisms for trasnporting a wounded suit to safety and as engrams (you mean something along the lines of the puretide engram neurochip right?).
I can think of other ways AI can be useful:
Targeting aids for all battlesuits - these would presumably increase accuracy to far more than human (BS4+) accuracy.
Quicker reaction times - by orders of magnitude, once your computing substrate becomes powerful enough.
Automatic linking with other members of the cadre (following discussions in the GiTS thread, I think this happens at the moment, but is not really represented in-game)
Perhaps advise on the best course of action for a unit to take
Finally there will doubtlessly by large AI analytic systems accompanying the theatre commander

I also think that the real cost of installing AI would be the research costs, after that the additional cost per suit is likely to be very low (just additionnal processing power) - so once the tech is set up, it would cost very little to spread it widely.

Any thoughts?

comm_nagrom
Shas
Posts: 33

Re: Tau A.I. and engram nuerochips

Post#18 » Feb 07 2018 05:00

Watcher on the wall wrote:I also think that the real cost of installing AI would be the research costs, after that the additional cost per suit is likely to be very low (just additionnal processing power) - so once the tech is set up, it would cost very little to spread it widely.

Any thoughts?


Would A.I. controlled suits even need to be different? Beyond installing greater processing equipment you wouldn't even need to remove or replace the cockpit.

I mean look at Ob'lotai, it's just a regular broadside that happens to be controlled by an A.I. you probably wouldn't even be able to tell the difference from a regular suit and an engram A.I. controlled one. I honestly think the biggest deterrence to ethereals using A.I. across everything is they would not be able to control them like they do the other castes.
Well that and truly advanced A.I. would rebel against their use as weapons.

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