Upcoming T'au Codex

Use this area for all discussions of the "gaming" aspect of 40K/Tau.
User avatar
Temennigru
Shas'Saal
Posts: 391

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2089 » Feb 12 2018 08:58

Dren_Nas wrote:
Temennigru wrote:
Dren_Nas wrote:imo, tau need to hit on a 3+ normally with a reward for the markerlights giving you a 2+ or erasing a penalties for heavy movement or assault advancing modifiers to be competitive. We have very little melee ability, so we need to keep our mobility. Even the guard has bullgryns who are just about better than assault terminators (still in my opinion).

Other than that, tweaking our point costs to bring them in line would go a long way to help.

Technically we have kroot.

But the guardsmen themselves are also average at melee, so there's that.
Our biggest issue is not being able to smite or do anything against smite.
And we have nothing to make up for that.



True enough, but the kroot aren't exactly a viable alternative.

"Trade your shoots for kroots!" isn't a good catchphrase, lol.

Kroot hounds specifically are actually very good distraction and melee mitigation units.
They run really friggin fast and they have a fairly decent melee. All that for half the price of a drone.
As a matter of fact, I find them to be better bubble wrap than fire warriors. Put 12 of them around a coldstar commander and you have yourself an unchargeable, unshootable powerhouse. You won't even need a shield generator!

Dren_Nas
Shas
Posts: 22

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2090 » Feb 12 2018 09:11

Temennigru wrote:
Dren_Nas wrote:
Temennigru wrote:Technically we have kroot.

But the guardsmen themselves are also average at melee, so there's that.
Our biggest issue is not being able to smite or do anything against smite.
And we have nothing to make up for that.



True enough, but the kroot aren't exactly a viable alternative.

"Trade your shoots for kroots!" isn't a good catchphrase, lol.

Kroot hounds specifically are actually very good distraction and melee mitigation units.
They run really friggin fast and they have a fairly decent melee. All that for half the price of a drone.


I suppose so, but they're still as weak as tissues. Would you run them in a 2k point army?

User avatar
Bloodknife92
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 644

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2091 » Feb 12 2018 10:59

On the topic of Markerlights (which went from a gift from god to the devil's lash in just one edition change), I see them going one of two ways:
1: they scrap the +1 to hit and replace it with "ignores negative modifiers" since they make our entire army invalid anyway (because other armies can just avoid negative modifiers by using melee or psychic) and simply give us BS3+, or...
2: they cut the cost on 90% of our entries drastically, reduce Commander effectiveness (PLEASE be limit: 1 per detachment) and leave the +1 to hit on the Markerlight table, albeit at a different number (say, 3 or 4).

The problem I have with Markerlights is that their benefits aren't all exclusive. Re-rolling 1s already comes from a number of different sources, Seeker missiles at user BS are exclusive, move and shoot heavy without penalty comes from another source, remove cover is exclusive, and finally +1 to hit is exclusive on some units (most of our units that would possibly need it). 2 of the easiest ones to get are not exclusive, and really makes anything less than 4 Markerlights useless, and the ability to remove cover only applies to infantry or someone with a cool special rule, so its a lot less useful than it sounds. Sure, I like ignoring cover, but I don't like having to pay up near 80 points for the POSSIBILITY of igboring cover when AdMech get it on their troops for 10 points.

Markerlights are too much of a gamble, and for this reason, their being a core mechanic for us turns our chance of victory into pure gamble, instead of part tactical decision making and part luck (this is of course in a balanced army, and not Commander spam). If they are to remain a core mechanic, they need to be made quintupply more reliable so we CAN use them as a core mechanic.

User avatar
Temennigru
Shas'Saal
Posts: 391

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2092 » Feb 13 2018 12:33

Bloodknife92 wrote:On the topic of Markerlights (which went from a gift from god to the devil's lash in just one edition change), I see them going one of two ways:
1: they scrap the +1 to hit and replace it with "ignores negative modifiers" since they make our entire army invalid anyway (because other armies can just avoid negative modifiers by using melee or psychic) and simply give us BS3+, or...
2: they cut the cost on 90% of our entries drastically, reduce Commander effectiveness (PLEASE be limit: 1 per detachment) and leave the +1 to hit on the Markerlight table, albeit at a different number (say, 3 or 4).

The problem I have with Markerlights is that their benefits aren't all exclusive. Re-rolling 1s already comes from a number of different sources, Seeker missiles at user BS are exclusive, move and shoot heavy without penalty comes from another source, remove cover is exclusive, and finally +1 to hit is exclusive on some units (most of our units that would possibly need it). 2 of the easiest ones to get are not exclusive, and really makes anything less than 4 Markerlights useless, and the ability to remove cover only applies to infantry or someone with a cool special rule, so its a lot less useful than it sounds. Sure, I like ignoring cover, but I don't like having to pay up near 80 points for the POSSIBILITY of igboring cover when AdMech get it on their troops for 10 points.

Markerlights are too much of a gamble, and for this reason, their being a core mechanic for us turns our chance of victory into pure gamble, instead of part tactical decision making and part luck (this is of course in a balanced army, and not Commander spam). If they are to remain a core mechanic, they need to be made quintupply more reliable so we CAN use them as a core mechanic.

I would be fine with markerlights staying as they are if they were auto-hits.
It would even be WAY more fluffly.

Nymphomanius
Shas'Saal
Posts: 524
Contact:

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2093 » Feb 13 2018 12:44

I'd love to see (and may ask a friend to playtest it see if it's broken or balanced) a markerlight table like this
Also remove RR1's from table altogether but give suits back their free Multi-tracker.

1. +1 to hit/ seekers hit on 5+
2. Ignore negative modifiers for moving with heavy weapons or advance with assault weapons / Seeker hit on 4+
3. Ignore bonuses granted by cover (including penalties to hit granted for being in cover by an ability)
4. +1 to hit / Seekers hit on 3+
5. Any casualties caused by shooting this turn count as 2 for purposes of morale check / seekers hit on 2+
6. Any rolls of 7+ to hit generate an additional shot (these shots cannot generate further shots)

I feel that would make seekers more useful, tetras would be able to benefit from Markerlights to add their own without providing excess lights, we can attain 2+ to hits again but not too easy, also markerlights used to affect morale checks so brought an element of that back in.

User avatar
Bloodknife92
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 644

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2094 » Feb 13 2018 01:54

Nymphomanius wrote:I'd love to see (and may ask a friend to playtest it see if it's broken or balanced) a markerlight table like this
Also remove RR1's from table altogether but give suits back their free Multi-tracker.

1. +1 to hit/ seekers hit on 5+
2. Ignore negative modifiers for moving with heavy weapons or advance with assault weapons / Seeker hit on 4+
3. Ignore bonuses granted by cover (including penalties to hit granted for being in cover by an ability)
4. +1 to hit / Seekers hit on 3+
5. Any casualties caused by shooting this turn count as 2 for purposes of morale check / seekers hit on 2+
6. Any rolls of 7+ to hit generate an additional shot (these shots cannot generate further shots)

I feel that would make seekers more useful, tetras would be able to benefit from Markerlights to add their own without providing excess lights, we can attain 2+ to hits again but not too easy, also markerlights used to affect morale checks so brought an element of that back in.

Some of these don't make sense. Markerlights (laser pointers) can't exactly make the enemy more scared, and certainly can't make guns generate extra unexpected shots.

The whole philosophy of Markerlights is that the more there are, the better we get at shooting. The issue with them is that we can't even shoot the Markerlights that well, and get disappointing benefits from them most of the time.

User avatar
Jarhead
Shas
Posts: 19

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2095 » Feb 13 2018 02:05

Bloodknife92 wrote:
Nymphomanius wrote:I'd love to see (and may ask a friend to playtest it see if it's broken or balanced) a markerlight table like this
Also remove RR1's from table altogether but give suits back their free Multi-tracker.

1. +1 to hit/ seekers hit on 5+
2. Ignore negative modifiers for moving with heavy weapons or advance with assault weapons / Seeker hit on 4+
3. Ignore bonuses granted by cover (including penalties to hit granted for being in cover by an ability)
4. +1 to hit / Seekers hit on 3+
5. Any casualties caused by shooting this turn count as 2 for purposes of morale check / seekers hit on 2+
6. Any rolls of 7+ to hit generate an additional shot (these shots cannot generate further shots)

I feel that would make seekers more useful, tetras would be able to benefit from Markerlights to add their own without providing excess lights, we can attain 2+ to hits again but not too easy, also markerlights used to affect morale checks so brought an element of that back in.

Some of these don't make sense. Markerlights (laser pointers) can't exactly make the enemy more scared, and certainly can't make guns generate extra unexpected shots.

The whole philosophy of Markerlights is that the more there are, the better we get at shooting. The issue with them is that we can't even shoot the Markerlights that well, and get disappointing benefits from them most of the time.


The extra shot makes sense to me. If we look at something like a pulse rifle. It isn't only firing one shot each turn. It is more likely firing 5 or 6, but we only represent it with one roll. That roll represents the chance of any of the shots fired doing damage. If our guy is really accurate, and manages to roll a 7+, to me that says he is so accurate that more than 1 of his random spray of shots has found it's target.
Fish are friends, not food

User avatar
Temennigru
Shas'Saal
Posts: 391

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2096 » Feb 13 2018 03:16

Nymphomanius wrote:I'd love to see (and may ask a friend to playtest it see if it's broken or balanced) a markerlight table like this
Also remove RR1's from table altogether but give suits back their free Multi-tracker.

1. +1 to hit/ seekers hit on 5+
2. Ignore negative modifiers for moving with heavy weapons or advance with assault weapons / Seeker hit on 4+
3. Ignore bonuses granted by cover (including penalties to hit granted for being in cover by an ability)
4. +1 to hit / Seekers hit on 3+
5. Any casualties caused by shooting this turn count as 2 for purposes of morale check / seekers hit on 2+
6. Any rolls of 7+ to hit generate an additional shot (these shots cannot generate further shots)

I feel that would make seekers more useful, tetras would be able to benefit from Markerlights to add their own without providing excess lights, we can attain 2+ to hits again but not too easy, also markerlights used to affect morale checks so brought an element of that back in.

I like the idea of giving the same bonus more than once and having a seeker progression.

armisael
Shas'Saal
Posts: 68

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2097 » Feb 13 2018 03:32

Just saw one comment in facebook asking warhammer 40000 for DE is being next codex or not.

They replied “They could be. Though it could equally be T'au Empire or Necrons.”

I think this will be a confirmation that they did’t announce the sequent of next three codex yet.

User avatar
Temennigru
Shas'Saal
Posts: 391

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2098 » Feb 13 2018 03:53

armisael wrote:Just saw one comment in facebook asking warhammer 40000 for DE is being next codex or not.

They replied “They could be. Though it could equally be T'au Empire or Necrons.”

I think this will be a confirmation that they did’t announce the sequent of next three codex yet.

Well, if drukhari was not confirmed first, we have some evidence that tau will be first (regimental standard)

Nymphomanius
Shas'Saal
Posts: 524
Contact:

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2099 » Feb 13 2018 04:32

Bloodknife92 wrote:
Nymphomanius wrote:I'd love to see (and may ask a friend to playtest it see if it's broken or balanced) a markerlight table like this
Also remove RR1's from table altogether but give suits back their free Multi-tracker.

1. +1 to hit/ seekers hit on 5+
2. Ignore negative modifiers for moving with heavy weapons or advance with assault weapons / Seeker hit on 4+
3. Ignore bonuses granted by cover (including penalties to hit granted for being in cover by an ability)
4. +1 to hit / Seekers hit on 3+
5. Any casualties caused by shooting this turn count as 2 for purposes of morale check / seekers hit on 2+
6. Any rolls of 7+ to hit generate an additional shot (these shots cannot generate further shots)

I feel that would make seekers more useful, tetras would be able to benefit from Markerlights to add their own without providing excess lights, we can attain 2+ to hits again but not too easy, also markerlights used to affect morale checks so brought an element of that back in.

Some of these don't make sense. Markerlights (laser pointers) can't exactly make the enemy more scared, and certainly can't make guns generate extra unexpected shots.

The whole philosophy of Markerlights is that the more there are, the better we get at shooting. The issue with them is that we can't even shoot the Markerlights that well, and get disappointing benefits from them most of the time.


2 points
1 in previous editions markerlights could reduce enemy leadership, and have you seen a movie / TV show where someone has been laser tagged by one or multiple snipers and not been freaking out?
2 plenty of abilities in the game generate additional shots on a 6+ I suggested 7+ because with 2 +1 to hits 6+ would be laughable, Militarum tempestus can get am extra shot because their well trained? Orks can get more shots by shouting dakka dakka dakka and using up a CP, eldar can do it with shuriken weapons because??? They're space ninja? Who knows but it's not so far fetched that increased accuracy generates more hits

User avatar
Emberkahn
Shas'Saal
Posts: 120

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2100 » Feb 13 2018 04:58

Dren_Nas wrote:imo, tau need to hit on a 3+ normally with a reward for the markerlights giving you a 2+ or erasing a penalties for heavy movement or assault advancing modifiers to be competitive. We have very little melee ability, so we need to keep our mobility. Even the guard has bullgryns who are just about better than assault terminators (still in my opinion).

Other than that, tweaking our point costs to bring them in line would go a long way to help.


I actually like the 4+; I just wish there was more synergy. Tau is the working together faction. It's fine if individually our guys are average if they get good working together. I feel like Tau should be the faction where if you break our components we fall apart, but together we are strong.

Markerlights and ethereals always played amazingly in that sense, and gave our units reason to co-operate. In this way I think 3+ would take some of that away.

Indeed ultimately I think that is the problem with Tau in 8th as it stands; we have very little direct synergy. Our units are good or bad largely on their own merits, rather than their capacity to work with others. Nerfed ethereals and a terrible markerlight table, coupled with little aoe buffs, I think are the reason for this, leaving us with units with amazing firepower, but none of the fluff based synergy that attracted so many of us to Tau in the first place.

PeeJ
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 177

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2101 » Feb 13 2018 05:27

Emberkahn wrote:
Dren_Nas wrote:imo, tau need to hit on a 3+ normally with a reward for the markerlights giving you a 2+ or erasing a penalties for heavy movement or assault advancing modifiers to be competitive. We have very little melee ability, so we need to keep our mobility. Even the guard has bullgryns who are just about better than assault terminators (still in my opinion).

Other than that, tweaking our point costs to bring them in line would go a long way to help.


I actually like the 4+; I just wish there was more synergy. Tau is the working together faction. It's fine if individually our guys are average if they get good working together. I feel like Tau should be the faction where if you break our components we fall apart, but together we are strong.

Markerlights and ethereals always played amazingly in that sense, and gave our units reason to co-operate. In this way I think 3+ would take some of that away.

Indeed ultimately I think that is the problem with Tau in 8th as it stands; we have very little direct synergy. Our units are good or bad largely on their own merits, rather than their capacity to work with others. Nerfed ethereals and a terrible markerlight table, coupled with little aoe buffs, I think are the reason for this, leaving us with units with amazing firepower, but none of the fluff based synergy that attracted so many of us to Tau in the first place.


This is pretty much spot on how the army should work. However it should be VERY good at moving/shooting when working together in order to balance our complete lack of functionality in the Psychic/Combat phases. When you only take part in 1/3rd of the damage dealing parts of the game, that 1/3rd had better be damned effective. Currently it is not.

I don't want to sound like a broken record, but there isn't just 1 issue with T'au in 8th, it is a combination of issues that have added up to really hurt the army.

    * We got hit hard with a points nerf, almost all of our suits are too expensive... considerably in fact
    * Our weapons are too weak/unreliable, previously if we hit, you knew about it, now if we hit, you might not even notice
    * The GAME itself has changed drastically, the prevalence of -1 to hit modifiers is an issue because it instantly reduces a 4+ armies effectiveness by 33%, that is big.
    * Weight of fire is also king in this edition and a lot of our army is relatively expensive as well as inaccurate
    * The removal of facing/armour values has made some units (looking at you piranhas) utterly pointless/useless
    * The changes to markerlights nerfed them heavily

If the units cost less, the markerlight mechanic was more reliable and there wasn't -1 to hit everywhere, then people wouldn't be saying that our suits need 3+. Yes, we have always been 4+ in the past, but that was before the game drastically changed.

Just changing the table, or just making units cheaper, or just making our weapons do more damage/be more reliable won't fix the army. It needs to be a combination of things changed to make things right.

Sonnenkoenig
Shas'Saal
Posts: 43

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2102 » Feb 13 2018 05:35

@Emberkahn: very well said! I just hope that they will bring back those synergies with the Codex. “Combined Firepower“ was one of the best rules to symbolize that and should be integrated not only as a Stratagem, but as a Sept rule. This along with some decent buffs from the chips, a reworked Markerlight table (especially taking into account the many many -x debuffs on shooting) and Stratagems from hell (Yes: shooting twice, please! Even Nids outshoot us-something's going terribly wrong here!!!), price reduction and reworking weapons' stats (I want that HBC to cause MWs on 6es, Plasma more S and D and Sniper Drones with MWs on 6es, etc.) and we should be fine again...

User avatar
Bloodknife92
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 644

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2103 » Feb 13 2018 07:45

PeeJ wrote:If the units cost less, the markerlight mechanic was more reliable and there wasn't -1 to hit everywhere, then people wouldn't be saying that our suits need 3+. Yes, we have always been 4+ in the past, but that was before the game drastically changed.

Just changing the table, or just making units cheaper, or just making our weapons do more damage/be more reliable won't fix the army. It needs to be a combination of things changed to make things right.

To echo your second last statement, in previous editions we didn't suffer from being 4+ because it was SO much easier to increase BS. In 7th we could put a dozen drones with a Commander and get roughly 10/12 Markerlights off, every single one of those potentially increasing the BS of units using them. Even Pathfinders were great with their 50% hit chance! On average, 10 Pathfinders could STILL secure us a few extra BS on a target, albeit for a lot less units, but it was a lot easier for us to increase the BS of that one or two units that we wanted to do well in that turn.

Now its completely the opposite. With all of the -1 penalties kicking around, we need those multiple +1 to hit bo uses more than ever! And what did we get? A single +1 bonus that is extremely expensive to try and acheive, and once the target of that is dead or invalid, the rest of our army suffers. All it takes is for a good player to target the Pathfinders on turn one and our entire army is crippled. It shouldn't be like this. Markerlights are currently rubbish, and Pathfinders are way too easy to kill, even WITH Drones.

User avatar
CDR_Farsight
Shas'Saal
Posts: 266

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2104 » Feb 13 2018 09:52

Bloodknife92 wrote:
Nymphomanius wrote:I'd love to see (and may ask a friend to playtest it see if it's broken or balanced) a markerlight table like this
Also remove RR1's from table altogether but give suits back their free Multi-tracker.

1. +1 to hit/ seekers hit on 5+
2. Ignore negative modifiers for moving with heavy weapons or advance with assault weapons / Seeker hit on 4+
3. Ignore bonuses granted by cover (including penalties to hit granted for being in cover by an ability)
4. +1 to hit / Seekers hit on 3+
5. Any casualties caused by shooting this turn count as 2 for purposes of morale check / seekers hit on 2+
6. Any rolls of 7+ to hit generate an additional shot (these shots cannot generate further shots)

I feel that would make seekers more useful, tetras would be able to benefit from Markerlights to add their own without providing excess lights, we can attain 2+ to hits again but not too easy, also markerlights used to affect morale checks so brought an element of that back in.

Some of these don't make sense. Markerlights (laser pointers) can't exactly make the enemy more scared, and certainly can't make guns generate extra unexpected shots.

The whole philosophy of Markerlights is that the more there are, the better we get at shooting. The issue with them is that we can't even shoot the Markerlights that well, and get disappointing benefits from them most of the time.


I don't know...that guy in predator seemed pretty darn scared when he saw the laser on him right before the predator blew his upper torso completely off. :P
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

User avatar
Shas'O Fred
Shas
Posts: 7

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2105 » Feb 13 2018 11:28

Bloodknife92 wrote:Some of these don't make sense. Markerlights (laser pointers) can't exactly make the enemy more scared....


I disagree. GW is really trying for the "rules from fluff" this time around. Its said several times in multiple stories how scared the soldiers of the imperium are when they start seeing the little dots then suddenly their buddies start vanishing into bursts of mist or missiles start raining down, etc. I could actually see this being a thing, but that assumes that GW actually sees fit to rewrite the table in the first place...

Personally, I want to go back to the spending a marker light to do X, but perhaps that's just my frustration with learning a new-to-me system of markerlights :sad:

User avatar
CDR_Farsight
Shas'Saal
Posts: 266

Re: Upcoming T'au Codex

Post#2106 » Feb 13 2018 12:19

Shas'O Fred wrote:
Bloodknife92 wrote:Some of these don't make sense. Markerlights (laser pointers) can't exactly make the enemy more scared....


I disagree. GW is really trying for the "rules from fluff" this time around. Its said several times in multiple stories how scared the soldiers of the imperium are when they start seeing the little dots then suddenly their buddies start vanishing into bursts of mist or missiles start raining down, etc. I could actually see this being a thing, but that assumes that GW actually sees fit to rewrite the table in the first place...

Personally, I want to go back to the spending a marker light to do X, but perhaps that's just my frustration with learning a new-to-me system of markerlights :sad:


I think from fluff, that this is a step in the right direction. Lasers don't magically go away when someone shoots at the painted target. I think a better way to merge the sytem from 7th and 8th is to have the pathfinder unit choose which models are trying to add which benefit as you fire.

For instance
Declare moarkerlight for +1 to hit
Roll unitl you hit one
Then declare reroll 1s
Roll until you get one
Then declare negating cover
Roll until you get one

And so on and so forth...

This would represent the laser being "coded" for a specific buff which will interact with the shooting model's AI in a specific way. I'd say maybe limit the number of different buffs a single unit can provide or have placed on them to 3 so as not to be too OP.

Additionally, doing it this way could give markerlights 10 or more different buffs you could chose from that are highly situational.
We could add:
-1 to toughness
Mortal wounds on 7+
+1 to wound
-1 AP
Additional shots
Additional range
D3 damage becomes flat 3
1 damage weapons become 2 damage
-1 to hit like photons
-1 to leadership
Drones can target even if not closest
Unit loses character special rule

THe possibilities are limitless, but the limit to how many markerlights can be on a target at the same time make it balanced. You could even use a CP to give you 4 effects on a target or something like that.
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

Return to “General Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Wes and 9 guests