Stealth suits for dummies

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
Nitrogue
Shas
Posts: 101

Stealth suits for dummies

Post#1 » Feb 13 2018 11:14

Hi All, considering getting some stealth suits next to add to my army (currently strike teams, pathfinders and XV8s at the mo)

Slight downside is that im not sure how to use them. I know they can be useful to deploy a homing beacon for manta striking units to get a bit closer, (which would be useful for my flamer xv8s).

After that are they basically harder to hit fire warriors? or are they a bit more specialised than that (anti elite vs covering fire)

also how much of a red flag are they, do opponents see them, know they will cause a lot of trouble, and promptly wipe them from the board before they have even gone 1"

cheers for thoughts

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Ifrit
Shas'La
Shas'La
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Re: Stealth suits for dummies

Post#2 » Feb 13 2018 12:13

So homing beacon delivery system, after that they are a kind of fun/annoying (depending on which side of the table you are on :D ) objective camper.
The amount of shots they put out is pretty good, the utility of being able to take a Fusion to throw around is good too.
You don’t have to worry about them getting shot off the first turn. Unless your opponent dedicates a ridiculous amount of firepower at them. Which is good because it means he’s shooting at them and not something else.
So if you have the points/space I’d suggest taking one unit and playing around with them.

Muaddib195
Shas
Posts: 21

Re: Stealth suits for dummies

Post#3 » Feb 13 2018 12:54

A 3-man stealth suit team with 2 shield drones in cover is amazingly resilient. If you can position the shield drones out of LOS, even better. Most imperial players don't have many options when it comes to killing an entrenched stealth suit. With a 2+ save in cover, and T4, they can tank a huge amount of bolter and lasgun fire. High strength, high AP weapons (meltagun, lascannon) are usually single shot. If the stealth modifier doesn't make them miss the shot, you can just pass it off to the shield drones. The stealth modifier also discourages the opponent from overcharging, so even if they hit you they only wound on 3s and only deal 1 damage per failed armor save. Unless you are playing against an IG player who likes to run Bane Wolf tanks, the best option for most Imperium players is either massed autocannon fire (thanks to the AP and D2) or heavy flamers (autohit and AP). Even then, the AP isn't very high so you can probably absorb a fair number of shots. As Ifrit mentioned, if they are shooting at your stealth suits with anti-tank weapons, that means fewer shots going at your crisis suits, big suits, hammerheads, and devilfish.

Outside of homing beacon deployment and objective camping, I think stealth suits are excellent mid-field deepstrike denial units. Ive stopped taking pathfinders and kroot (too squishy), so I usually bring 2-3 stealth suits to protect my deployment zone from turn 1 plasma and melta drops.

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Aspiring Commander
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Re: Stealth suits for dummies

Post#4 » Feb 13 2018 01:10

On top of all the resilience, they're also probably our best carrier for a drone controller as it stands, as they don't lose a weapon to take it. Means if you use a homing beacon for a flamer crisis team with 6x gun drones, you essentially get 6 more burst cannons worth of S5 fire :)

Their damage output isn't amazing, but they make a solid distraction. Stick on a mid table objective in cover, and count the shots that aren't targeting your main threats!

Even though it's not essential to my play style, I always take a homing beacon. You never know when you need that Quad fusion commander inside melta range!

If I can spare the points, I usually will take 2x burst cannon suits with ATS, and then a shas'vre with fusion blaster and DC, along with a couple of shield drones. Makes them that much more effective against MEQs, and allows you to land those last few bits of damage on a wounded vehicle. If you end up playing kill point based missions, I'd leave the drones at home though.
'We act as one, and united we cannot fall'

-Commander Shadowsun

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Yojimbob
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Re: Stealth suits for dummies

Post#5 » Feb 13 2018 02:28

Aspiring Commander wrote:On top of all the resilience, they're also probably our best carrier for a drone controller as it stands, as they don't lose a weapon to take it. Means if you use a homing beacon for a flamer crisis team with 6x gun drones, you essentially get 6 more burst cannons worth of S5 fire :)

Their damage output isn't amazing, but they make a solid distraction. Stick on a mid table objective in cover, and count the shots that aren't targeting your main threats!

Even though it's not essential to my play style, I always take a homing beacon. You never know when you need that Quad fusion commander inside melta range!

If I can spare the points, I usually will take 2x burst cannon suits with ATS, and then a shas'vre with fusion blaster and DC, along with a couple of shield drones. Makes them that much more effective against MEQs, and allows you to land those last few bits of damage on a wounded vehicle. If you end up playing kill point based missions, I'd leave the drones at home though.


Best DC carrier is technically a commander. DC+flamer and he's untargetable. He's in my GCGT list I'm taking this weekend.

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CDR_Farsight
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Re: Stealth suits for dummies

Post#6 » Feb 13 2018 02:56

Yojimbob wrote:
Aspiring Commander wrote:On top of all the resilience, they're also probably our best carrier for a drone controller as it stands, as they don't lose a weapon to take it. Means if you use a homing beacon for a flamer crisis team with 6x gun drones, you essentially get 6 more burst cannons worth of S5 fire :)

Their damage output isn't amazing, but they make a solid distraction. Stick on a mid table objective in cover, and count the shots that aren't targeting your main threats!

Even though it's not essential to my play style, I always take a homing beacon. You never know when you need that Quad fusion commander inside melta range!

If I can spare the points, I usually will take 2x burst cannon suits with ATS, and then a shas'vre with fusion blaster and DC, along with a couple of shield drones. Makes them that much more effective against MEQs, and allows you to land those last few bits of damage on a wounded vehicle. If you end up playing kill point based missions, I'd leave the drones at home though.


Best DC carrier is technically a commander. DC+flamer and he's untargetable. He's in my GCGT list I'm taking this weekend.


I think you may be forgetting to factor in the massive amount of firepower you lose giving a DC to a commander and taking away his BS2+ entirely with flamers.
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

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Aspiring Commander
Shas'Saal
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Re: Stealth suits for dummies

Post#7 » Feb 13 2018 03:45

CDR_Farsight wrote:
Yojimbob wrote:Best DC carrier is technically a commander. DC+flamer and he's untargetable. He's in my GCGT list I'm taking this weekend.


I think you may be forgetting to factor in the massive amount of firepower you lose giving a DC to a commander and taking away his BS2+ entirely with flamers.


Yes quite. A drone controller and a flamer is a waste of 2 BS2+ weapons. Stealth suit can take a drone controller without losing any amount of firepower?
'We act as one, and united we cannot fall'

-Commander Shadowsun

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gunrock
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Re: Stealth suits for dummies

Post#8 » Feb 13 2018 04:02

CDR_Farsight wrote:I think you may be forgetting to factor in the massive amount of firepower you lose giving a DC to a commander and taking away his BS2+ entirely with flamers.


This is super true, commander suffers proportionally more then most other choices. In order of best to worst DC carriers I think it goes: Stealth suit, XV-8, Coldstar, XV-9, Commander, and any large suit. Stealth suit only really lose the option to take ATS which is very workable, are a poor drone delivery platform, but excellent for supporting ground drones. XV-8 proportionally loses less firepower taking DC and is a much better drone delivery platform to boot, Coldstar is alright but you lose either shield generator or target lock, which is manageable depending on how you use them. XV-9 loses ATS, but is a good drone delivery platform and loses no weapons taking DC. Commander is generally bad, loses a weapon/ats slot, is generally in the wrong board position to support ground drones, and can only take a limited number of drones.

I'm sort of at an en passe as how to to best use the stealth suits. For sure they're flexible, excellent DC carriers, resilient, have nice deployment options. Generally, I think taking the fusion blast on them is a waste at their low BS (since the gun costs the same across units). They're so-so as marker drone carriers because they start on the field. People have mixed feeling on the marker+target lock option as it's still a a pretty expensive way of getting lights, but I think it's good in certain lists, just don't take ATS or Fusion. I like the shield drones + generators build as a base which works well as objective grabbers/any of the homing beacon builds, and can also accommodate the DC. The thing with the DC is you need some other way of getting drones to them. IDK, by the time you tally up the cost, you could of usually taken another commander, which makes them hard to rationalize as a trade off of firepower for utility.
All the rivers run into the sea, Yet the sea is not full; Unto the place whither the rivers go, Thither they go again.

War horse1
Shas
Posts: 17

Re: Stealth suits for dummies

Post#9 » Feb 13 2018 06:41

The benifits of taking stealth suits are really worth taking them.

The ability to deploy strait onto an objective is briliant, although be careful as if you put then strait into the opponants firing or charge range is worrying. But the -1 to hit helps here as it works in melee and shooting.

This deployment ability also means you can use them as area denial for deepstriking units, which helps against a 1st turn charge.

They are very resilient. The 2+ save in cover, -1 to hit and 2 shield drones means they can tank a lot of wounds before being brought down.
You can even put a shield gen on the fusion carryer for a bit extra.

The homing becon means that you can get either your flamer XV8s into range to fire or your QFC into melta range. This is done by deploying close to the enemy and move and advancing to get the right spot to deploy homing becon.

The fact that taking a supprt system without losing a gun is rather handy, take ATS on the burst cannon to give it a bit of extra (in my opinion always take the ATS on the burst cannons, you already have enough sources of S5 AP0 weapons from drones and FW.) And the fusion carryer can take a multi tracker to reroll 1s or a DC (if you take marker drones and plan to drop crisis suits in with them, other wise its not worth it) or a shield gen for added durability as mentioned before.

If the opponant knows you have a homing becon and QFC they will dedicate fire power to try and kill the stealth suits, which means there not targeting other units, this is good as a distraction tactic, and when you think about it deploying the commander at 18" really isnt that bad if you lose them.

If you take them in units of 3 you never suffer the penalties of morale which is handy you don't want to lose a 40-50ish point model.

Hope that helps.

Ricordis
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 384

Re: Stealth suits for dummies

Post#10 » Feb 13 2018 06:42

Today I played 1.250 points against Blood Angels and took two units of 3x XV25s (1x FB, 2x BC) and a XV95 (FC, 2x BC). Their primary job was to infiltrate the objective markers and decline any disadvantageous Deep Strikes and incoming reserves. And wow...they totally overperformed today.
They were able to hold two out of three objectives and created choke points for his reserves to enter right in front of my guns.
One team withstood 3 rounds of 10 Bolters firing at rapid fire range and the other team blocked a 10-man death company squad for two turns before they got obliterated by ...attention now... 5 Pathfinders with Markerlights, 3 Ghosts and 3 Pathfinders with Rail Rifles.

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Yojimbob
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Re: Stealth suits for dummies

Post#11 » Feb 14 2018 11:00

Aspiring Commander wrote:
CDR_Farsight wrote:
Yojimbob wrote:Best DC carrier is technically a commander. DC+flamer and he's untargetable. He's in my GCGT list I'm taking this weekend.


I think you may be forgetting to factor in the massive amount of firepower you lose giving a DC to a commander and taking away his BS2+ entirely with flamers.


Yes quite. A drone controller and a flamer is a waste of 2 BS2+ weapons. Stealth suit can take a drone controller without losing any amount of firepower?


UNTARGETTABLE. What part of this word are you people missing? Makes him infinitely harder to kill than stealths which are admittedly hard to kill anyway. But the point stands that my DC caddy is untargettable. Everyone complains about how easy it is to break up our synergy with killing off markerlights and people carrying drone controllers so this is a solution to that.

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Aspiring Commander
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Re: Stealth suits for dummies

Post#12 » Feb 14 2018 11:47

Yojimbob wrote:UNTARGETTABLE. What part of this word are you people missing? Makes him infinitely harder to kill than stealths which are admittedly hard to kill anyway. But the point stands that my DC caddy is untargettable. Everyone complains about how easy it is to break up our synergy with killing off markerlights and people carrying drone controllers so this is a solution to that.


I see the point you're making, but if your opponent shoots ten space marines in rapid fire range at a stealth team in cover, you will do 0.83 wounds statistically. It would take around 70 space marines in rapid fire range to kill off the squad, that does not include drones taking wounds.

I'm curious as how you're running this Commander, Is it within a blob of 40 gun drones? What is it equipped with?
'We act as one, and united we cannot fall'

-Commander Shadowsun

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Yojimbob
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Re: Stealth suits for dummies

Post#13 » Feb 14 2018 01:33

Aspiring Commander wrote:
Yojimbob wrote:UNTARGETTABLE. What part of this word are you people missing? Makes him infinitely harder to kill than stealths which are admittedly hard to kill anyway. But the point stands that my DC caddy is untargettable. Everyone complains about how easy it is to break up our synergy with killing off markerlights and people carrying drone controllers so this is a solution to that.


I see the point you're making, but if your opponent shoots ten space marines in rapid fire range at a stealth team in cover, you will do 0.83 wounds statistically. It would take around 70 space marines in rapid fire range to kill off the squad, that does not include drones taking wounds.

I'm curious as how you're running this Commander, Is it within a blob of 40 gun drones? What is it equipped with?


Blob of 51 drones. It's 10 commanders each with 2 shield drones, 3 6 man drone squads with 3 shield drones, 2 gun, 1 marker, 1 6 man with 2 each, and one 7 man with 2 gun, 2 marker, and 3 shield. 3 squads of 5 strike team because I needed a battalion. Oh and 4 kroot hounds because of DS protection. I have him sitting around giving boosts to the marker drones. The list is designed to not be able to remove my synergy since I want all commanders hitting 97% of the time. It works. I promise. Dropping tournament players left and right.

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gunrock
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Re: Stealth suits for dummies

Post#14 » Feb 14 2018 02:41

Yojimbob wrote:
Best DC carrier is technically a commander. DC+flamer and he's untargetable. He's in my GCGT list I'm taking this weekend.


Just no. TBH I've been wracking my brain on this question for a while based on similar logic, certain commanders can start on the field without too much fuss. The character rule is definitely a boon, he doesn't need to be carrying the DC to take advantage of that.

The math of losing a hard point on a commander is bad. Flamer loadout also produces mismatched ranges with drones which is annoying and relegates him to the backfield where you wouldn't want a flamer anyway. There's a rationale for doing it in an all commander list, but even then the better choice would have been a Coldstar, matched ranges, starts on field, character rule, and no loss of a weapon (or even ATS).
All the rivers run into the sea, Yet the sea is not full; Unto the place whither the rivers go, Thither they go again.

comm_nagrom
Shas
Posts: 33

Re: Stealth suits for dummies

Post#15 » Feb 14 2018 08:32

Yojimbob wrote:Blob of 51 drones. It's 10 commanders each with 2 shield drones, 3 6 man drone squads with 3 shield drones, 2 gun, 1 marker, 1 6 man with 2 each, and one 7 man with 2 gun, 2 marker, and 3 shield. 3 squads of 5 strike team because I needed a battalion. Oh and 4 kroot hounds because of DS protection. I have him sitting around giving boosts to the marker drones. The list is designed to not be able to remove my synergy since I want all commanders hitting 97% of the time. It works. I promise. Dropping tournament players left and right.


That's... the whole army? 10 commanders and 51 drones with a few troops just to fill the batallion? That sounds boring as hell, competitive sure but boring. If that's the best list for tourney tau then I hope they do nerf the commander into the ground cause that is unfluffy and gimmicky

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Yojimbob
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Re: Stealth suits for dummies

Post#16 » Feb 15 2018 09:31

comm_nagrom wrote:
Yojimbob wrote:Blob of 51 drones. It's 10 commanders each with 2 shield drones, 3 6 man drone squads with 3 shield drones, 2 gun, 1 marker, 1 6 man with 2 each, and one 7 man with 2 gun, 2 marker, and 3 shield. 3 squads of 5 strike team because I needed a battalion. Oh and 4 kroot hounds because of DS protection. I have him sitting around giving boosts to the marker drones. The list is designed to not be able to remove my synergy since I want all commanders hitting 97% of the time. It works. I promise. Dropping tournament players left and right.


That's... the whole army? 10 commanders and 51 drones with a few troops just to fill the batallion? That sounds boring as hell, competitive sure but boring. If that's the best list for tourney tau then I hope they do nerf the commander into the ground cause that is unfluffy and gimmicky


I agree but yes it is extremely competitive. I didn't believe how ridiculous this truly was until I got it all on the board. It has frustrated every opponent to high heaven with how little they can do about my fire power to the point of concession. As I said, I'm taking this to a fairly big tournament as I'm a fairly competitive player and this is unfortunately the only way to fight right now.

Back on topic of the thread though, stealth suits are quite good but with the amount of 5/0/1 power we have everywhere, I just don't like seeing yet another bs4+ model with them. If they bring down the price of burst cannons, expect to see ATS cannon stealth suits EVERYWHERE because the heavy bolter profile is secretly one of the games best statlines and these guys will have access to that, plus the perma -1 to hit on a two wound 3+ model that moves quickly. Seriously suspect these guys will be the new hotness once the codex drops.

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CDR_Farsight
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Re: Stealth suits for dummies

Post#17 » Feb 15 2018 10:07

Yojimbob wrote:
Aspiring Commander wrote:
CDR_Farsight wrote:
I think you may be forgetting to factor in the massive amount of firepower you lose giving a DC to a commander and taking away his BS2+ entirely with flamers.


Yes quite. A drone controller and a flamer is a waste of 2 BS2+ weapons. Stealth suit can take a drone controller without losing any amount of firepower?


UNTARGETTABLE. What part of this word are you people missing? Makes him infinitely harder to kill than stealths which are admittedly hard to kill anyway. But the point stands that my DC caddy is untargettable. Everyone complains about how easy it is to break up our synergy with killing off markerlights and people carrying drone controllers so this is a solution to that.


Right....so if the commander is in the middle of a bunch of drones then they have to shoot the drones first. We get it. (setting aside the fact that he is not as UNTARGETTABLE as you think)

So a marine squad shoots 18 shots (using 18 for simplicity sake) at the drones around a commander....hits with 12....wounds with 6...causes 3 unsaved wounds. Keeping in mind that you have no option to pocket wounds or take saves on the commander instead because the drones were targeted directly.

Pay close attention to this next part...

The same marines squad tries to kill a stealth team with DC...also in the middle of a big swarm of drones
18 shots...9 hits (because of -1)...4.5 wounds to drones assuming all wounds are passed off via SP.
On it's face, you lose 1.5 more drones; however, keep in mind that if you equip 2 of the 3 with Shield Generators and judiciously use cover, you can actually tank 5 wounds saving on a 3+/4++ with a 2+ in cover before a single drone dies. Meaning an average of 60 shots before you'd even have to take away a single drone...120 if you are in cover. 60 shots at the drones would have killed 10 drones by now...120 would have doubled that, probably severely crippling your drone swarm to the point of uselessness by now) All at less cost than a commander. AND if they get frustrated trying to kill the stealth team then at WORST they will just target the drones instead...reverting back to a flat 3 dead drones the commander option provides.
Last edited by CDR_Farsight on Feb 15 2018 10:36, edited 3 times in total.
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

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CDR_Farsight
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Re: Stealth suits for dummies

Post#18 » Feb 15 2018 10:10

Yojimbob wrote:
Aspiring Commander wrote:
Yojimbob wrote:UNTARGETTABLE. What part of this word are you people missing? Makes him infinitely harder to kill than stealths which are admittedly hard to kill anyway. But the point stands that my DC caddy is untargettable. Everyone complains about how easy it is to break up our synergy with killing off markerlights and people carrying drone controllers so this is a solution to that.


I see the point you're making, but if your opponent shoots ten space marines in rapid fire range at a stealth team in cover, you will do 0.83 wounds statistically. It would take around 70 space marines in rapid fire range to kill off the squad, that does not include drones taking wounds.

I'm curious as how you're running this Commander, Is it within a blob of 40 gun drones? What is it equipped with?


Blob of 51 drones. It's 10 commanders each with 2 shield drones, 3 6 man drone squads with 3 shield drones, 2 gun, 1 marker, 1 6 man with 2 each, and one 7 man with 2 gun, 2 marker, and 3 shield. 3 squads of 5 strike team because I needed a battalion. Oh and 4 kroot hounds because of DS protection. I have him sitting around giving boosts to the marker drones. The list is designed to not be able to remove my synergy since I want all commanders hitting 97% of the time. It works. I promise. Dropping tournament players left and right.


Even in this list, you would increase the efficiency by changing the DC Commander to a DC Stealth Squad because of the reasons listed above. You'd also be able to take a few more drones...

Please don't fall victim to what we call in the industry, "Not Invented Here Syndrome." Your concept is solid; however, we are just trying to help you increase the efficiency.
To secure victory, the wise must adapt ~ Puretide

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